Great come back, I see you're upping your game.
I've joined the conversation and not trolled the thread like some. Maybe try it. It's more pleasing to ones mind when this happens. It might help you grow as a person.
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vaccine poll
- Thread starter Freddy F
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I've joined the conversation and not trolled the thread like some. Maybe try it. It's more pleasing to ones mind when this happens. It might help you grow as a person.
Unvaccinated deaths are 46.6% of total Delta Deaths in the UK, while fully vaccinated vaccinated are 35.5%.
Gives vaccinated people a 23.5% reduction in risk of death from the Delta variant, compared to unvaccinated.
Although the potentially scary part is looking at case fatality rates, but the UK does not break down age groups to show if their cases are representative of each other. Likely not at this point in their vaccination efforts. But the CFR is 0.1% for unvaccinated people (likely younger), compared to 0.6% for vaccinated people (likely older).
Before people cry foul about a sample size of 73 again, it is the best data available, and it's not that statistically different then Moderna claiming 94.1% effectiveness with only 196 cases, or Pfizer with 170 cases to claim 95% effectiveness on their vaccine trials. Small numbers on the outcome side of a study to produce generalizations is quite normal in medicine, as long as the sample pool is large enough which at 60,624 it is.
June 14 means the 2weeks + 2nd dose deaths would have gotten their shots around the end of May. At that time the UK was just ahead of Canada in 2nd doses, so the majority of people that had gotten them and been 2 weeks+ mid June were in the 70+ group, who are statistically more likely to die from Covid that younger groups.
Yes, but does not bode well for our 4th wave this fall. Still plenty of old and vulnerable people out there likely to lose their lives, vaccinated or not.
And how many tests were completed and came back negative in that 232 day period?
Cherry picking breakthrough infection death numbers between vaccinated and unvaccinated people in a massive 232 day period, in which only 73 people died to begin with, is a great way to make figures look bad (your goal), but isn't based in the reality that inside that 232 day period likely millions of tests were completed and came back negative from people that were protected that might otherwise have been positive.
Show the numbers of tests completed in that period and then cross reference the positives to negatives.
Suddenly the numbers look at lot rosier, as it's been shown that the current MRNA vaccines are still highly effective against delta.
Those claims are based on primarily the British data that the vaccines are 89.7% effective at symptomatic Delta. Which is that and many articles are reporting.
If someone believes the way they calculated effectiveness of the vaccines, they either need to believe the same data for deaths, or they have cognitive dissonance impairing their judgement.
That's actually an irrelevant number. Even the official vaccine trials outright ignored negative results. They never get factored into efficiency equations between placebo/unvaccinated and vaccinated groups.
If it did, it would mean Pfizer would have to account for the 3,410 people who had COVID symptoms on their study but since they never got a PCR test done Pfizer gladly eliminated them from their study.
You're welcome. Perhaps you might like to take the time to understand the actual article though instead of leaning towards your pre (and ill)-conceived biases. Update us when your next Nature article makes the front pages.
The nicotine patch trials have been running since last year. Nothing major has come out of them. You probably also know this, but dihydroxyquinine was also run in quite a few clinical trials around the same time. Care to hazard a guess at where that now lies in the treatment protocols for COVID?
Nicotine is a really interesting molecule…..used as a pesticide for decades among other things.
Those are a combination of breakthrough infection numbers and totally unvaccinated numbers, given the time period.
Given the current percentage of delta spreading in the wild in both the UK and here in Ontario, and our still consistent low numbers as vaccination numbers rise makes the numbers your using and the argument you're trying to make with them disingenuous.
There will always be breakthroughs, and there will always be deaths. Looking solely at those numbers results in percentage form, comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated numbers is again, making a disingenuous argument.
Do we have anything to worry about with Delta? Sure.
Is it going to result in the huge spike of deaths we saw with the previous waves? Unlikely.
Raw infections? Quite possible. But if we've reached the point where Covid is reduced to the equivalent of a bad cold for the vaccinated population, well, we're in the best place we can be.
Those who choose to not get vaccinated, well, odds may not be in their favour.
Given the current percentage of delta spreading in the wild in both the UK and here in Ontario, and our still consistent low numbers as vaccination numbers rise makes the numbers your using and the argument you're trying to make with them disingenuous.
There will always be breakthroughs, and there will always be deaths. Looking solely at those numbers results in percentage form, comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated numbers is again, making a disingenuous argument.
Do we have anything to worry about with Delta? Sure.
Is it going to result in the huge spike of deaths we saw with the previous waves? Unlikely.
Raw infections? Quite possible. But if we've reached the point where Covid is reduced to the equivalent of a bad cold for the vaccinated population, well, we're in the best place we can be.
Those who choose to not get vaccinated, well, odds may not be in their favour.
DownUnder
Well-known member
It's flu season there right now. Same thing will happen here when the next flue season hits, whether people are or are not vaccinated won't matter, there will be a spike.
My BIL (who "normally" is very intelligent) has completely fallen prey to the ivermectin story (Google FLCCC) ..His wife (my sister) and the 2 kids have not had their shots....and the kids (26 and 30 yrs old) are also talking about ivermectin.....makes me insane to think about it. He spends way too much time at home on the internet, he isn't currently working, let's my sister take care of that little inconvenience, and researches the crap out of everything but I think he is 100% ruled by confirmation bias. I did do my best to explain over email why that story is totally irrelevant but whether it sunk home is not is something I don't know. I doubt it.
If that sample, in that form can be used to validate the effectiveness of the vaccine in preventing symptomatic cases of the Delta variant. Then it can be used to point out that the most severe outcome is still there.
1-(4087÷(35521+4087)) = 89.7%
Is the math used by the NHS to report that the vaccines are 90% effective against symptomatic Delta infection.
Again, how many tests were done in that 232 day period?
How many tested negative?
What percentage of those overall negative results were vaccinated?
The numbers you're referencing are only showing a small part of the argument that fits your narrative whilst completely and totally ignoring the bigger picture.
Again, nobody is arguing that vaccines are 100% effective, because we know they're not. But trying to claim that the death rate between vaccinated and unvaccinated in breakthrough infections tells the whole story whilst at the same time ignoring the glaring reality of the percent of tests done vs negative outcomes is disingenuous.
Lets not even get into the reality that the data you posted doesn't mention age ranges in the vaccinated vs unvaccinated figures. If 90% of the deaths were in the >90YO age group and the remaining 10% were in the rest of the population, again, it's not such the terrible picture you're trying to paint anymore, is it?
The pharmacy where I got my first shot called us last week and moved us up another week.
Got a second shot (Pfizer) on Friday.
Saturday was a bit of an off day for me, lethargic, mild fever. Flushed and bled the brakes on the track bike, that's a slow and tedious job anyway. Should have taken some Tylenol but I don't have any.
Today I'm back to normal.
From this ... Toronto clinic administers record-breaking 26,000+ doses in one day
comes this quote from a doctor at Michael Garron Hospital (a.k.a. Toronto East General Hospital):
One of the 400 vaccinators at the clinic is Dr. Michael Warner, a critical care doctor at MGH.
"We still do have patients who are now chronically, critically ill from their COVID-19 infection. But in many cases, that infection was acquired two or three months ago. It's been about three weeks since we've admitted a new patient with COVID-19. And I hope we don't ever admit another patient with COVID-19," Warner said.
The past three weeks includes the time period for the Delta variant to largely take over in Ontario (although from a link that I posted earlier, that "take over" has largely taken the form of the previous dominant variant Alpha a.k.a. B.1.1.7 to dwindle out while daily numbers of delta infections have stayed more or less steady).
5 weeks ago (a couple weeks before "about three weeks since") our first-dose situation was pretty good among the elderly crowd and we had barely begun delivering second doses in earnest. The situation is better now and it's getting a lot better in a big hurry.
That's promising.
comes this quote from a doctor at Michael Garron Hospital (a.k.a. Toronto East General Hospital):
One of the 400 vaccinators at the clinic is Dr. Michael Warner, a critical care doctor at MGH.
"We still do have patients who are now chronically, critically ill from their COVID-19 infection. But in many cases, that infection was acquired two or three months ago. It's been about three weeks since we've admitted a new patient with COVID-19. And I hope we don't ever admit another patient with COVID-19," Warner said.
The past three weeks includes the time period for the Delta variant to largely take over in Ontario (although from a link that I posted earlier, that "take over" has largely taken the form of the previous dominant variant Alpha a.k.a. B.1.1.7 to dwindle out while daily numbers of delta infections have stayed more or less steady).
5 weeks ago (a couple weeks before "about three weeks since") our first-dose situation was pretty good among the elderly crowd and we had barely begun delivering second doses in earnest. The situation is better now and it's getting a lot better in a big hurry.
That's promising.
Fake vaccine certificates are flourishing on Moscow's black market
Russia's internet regulator said it shut down 150 web pages and accounts selling the phoney documents, with the average price of a fake vaccine certificate fetching…
nationalpost.com
February 1st to June 14th is 134 days.
Considering the average age of COVID deaths has always remained above official life expectancy world wide. In Ontario the figure is nearly twice as many above 80 then below 80. And most of our deaths were in LTC homes were average life expectancy is about 2 years after admission.
Doesn't actually matter what age group is dying or how close to death they are. When our policies and reaction for COVID does not take that into account.
We don't "just let" people die. No matter how close to death they are.
You haven’t been around many people while they’re clearly at end of life. Sadly, I have, having been part of the decision to “let go” of both of my parents. Families make decisions sometimes when continuing life support is clearly futile.
I’ve also been there several times when the same decisions have been made by others.
It’s very much a thing to come to the conclusion that dragging on the inevitable is pointless, and sometimes cruel, and yes, medical care can very much be directed to “let people go”.
Another important aspect keep in mind on death statistics is some of these people have been on life-support for months and are finally being let go.
And yes, 133 days. Siri is on Crack apparently and I might have had a few too many Rye and Cokes around the pool yesterday to mentally compute it didn’t jive.
My questions and points still stand.
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