vaccine poll

[ToSlow]

The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy

Background: COVID-19 vaccines have had expedited reviews without sufficient safety data. We wanted to compare risks and benefits. Method: We calculated the number needed to vaccinate (NNTV) from a large Israeli field study to prevent one death. We accessed the Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Dimitri]

The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy

Background: COVID-19 vaccines have had expedited reviews without sufficient safety data. We wanted to compare risks and benefits. Method: We calculated the number needed to vaccinate (NNTV) from a large Israeli field study to prevent one death. We accessed the Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)...

www.mdpi.com

Result: The NNTV is between 200–700 to prevent one case of COVID-19 for the mRNA vaccine marketed by Pfizer, while the NNTV to prevent one death is between 9000 and 50,000 (95% confidence interval)

So Israel is spending between $350,000 to $1,950,000 per death prevented at $19.50 a dose and you need two doses.

 

[Brian P]

Overly simplistic to look at it that way. No one knows how many deaths there would be if vaccination were to be abandoned completely - but see Brazil, India, etc. No one knows what the long-term cost would be of caring for those who "recovered" but had long-term effects.

The cost of the health care system could be cut to 0 by abandoning it completely. Is that a good course of action?

 

[Brian P]

Minor digging finds that MDPI doesn't have a great reputation, with adequacy of peer-review for what they publish being an apparent weakness.

 

[ToSlow]

Minor digging finds that MDPI doesn't have a great reputation, with adequacy of peer-review for what they publish being an apparent weakness.

Any information is worth a look don’t you think?

Not going left or right on the topic, but seems every link i post seems to never be up to your standards

 

[regder]

For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. Conclusions: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.

Strange that they view it simply as deaths vs non-deaths. No consideration for strain on the health care system from hospitalized patients or the volume of people likely to have long term Covid effects.

 

[Dimitri]

Overly simplistic to look at it that way. No one knows how many deaths there would be if vaccination were to be abandoned completely

But we have age adjusted death rates, based on age brackets and number of cases. Just need to extend the math out based on the current population pyramid.

Which is exactly what the government does for its COVID updates to scare us back into lockdowns.

They assume X amount of new cases based on the R0 value, then using known rates of hospitalization, ICU and deaths they get a value.

It's simple mathematics. There is no special care or thought that goes into it.

 

[Brian P]

You're getting criticism of the links that you post because you only post links to questionable content. Do that, and it's going to be questioned. And since you asked ... here is where I am coming from.

Just because numbers someone wrote in a publication are accurate doesn't mean they aren't being used in a misleading manner.

From that article: "Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021 / Published: 24 June 2021"

There is NO FREAKING WAY that proper peer review for something like that, including editing of revisions and so forth, can be completed in 17 days (from the 2nd to the 19th). In journals having proper peer review (Lancet, NEJM, etc) this takes months. Because coronavirus is progressing faster than that, a lot of papers are published as pre-prints (before peer review) but they clearly state this.

In the very article that you linked to, right near the top, is a big yellow box "Expression of concern" with today's date on it, with a link to another document.

Here's where that leads: Expression of Concern: Walach et al. The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy. Vaccines 2021, 9, 693 - Download the PDF file and read it.

The "expression of concern" is obviously incomplete and to be updated later (says that right in the text) ... but it's indicative that someone with much better qualifications than any of us, is in the process of officially objecting to the content of that article ... as they should. The article in question was only published on 24th June ... people outside of the group involved in the paper and what scant peer-review it had, have barely had time to react.

I will give MDPI credit for at least providing an avenue for content to be questioned ... but proper peer-review by people with appropriate qualifications ought to catch that before it ever gets published.

 

[Brian P]

But we have age adjusted death rates, based on age brackets and number of cases. Just need to extend the math out based on the current population pyramid.

Which is exactly what the government does for its COVID updates to scare us back into lockdowns.

They assume X amount of new cases based on the R0 value, then using known rates of hospitalization, ICU and deaths they get a value.

It's simple mathematics. There is no special care or thought that goes into it.

Certainly the number of deaths in the absence of any medical treatment could be estimated. Unfortunately, there are situations in the rest of the world that are indicative of what can happen.

Brazil is another country with a "leader" who has been in denial of this whole situation and has done little to abate it: Brazil COVID: 18,420,598 Cases and 513,544 Deaths - Worldometer

No sign of the situation abating on its own.

It's highly likely that the number of cases is higher than the reported number, and there's no way to know by how much, but it's probably a lot.

Peru is another low-vaccination example of what can happen. Very bad situation there.

 

[jc100]

45 mins on the website waiting in line to rebook my second dose….get in..enter info…“no appointments available thank you for your patience”.

**** show.

Sigh.

 

[Dimitri]

It's highly likely that the number of cases is higher than the reported number, and there's no way to know by how much, but it's probably a lot.

Yes, the asymptomatic (unaccounted) rate of COVID is somewhere between 54% like on the Diamond Princess up to 86% based on random antibody testing in England.

Which would push the death rate down.

 

[SVeezy]

Any information is worth a look don’t you think?

Not going left or right on the topic, but seems every link i post seems to never be up to your standards

Perhaps nothing should be scrutinized and all should be taken at face value? Don’t take it personal, the only way to have a serious discussion is if we dig into the details.


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com mobile app

 

[Brian P]

Yes, the asymptomatic (unaccounted) rate of COVID is somewhere between 54% like on the Diamond Princess up to 86% based on random antibody testing in England.

Which would push the death rate down.

Then why aren't the number of cases in Brazil or Peru going down appreciably yet?

They will ... at some point ... but Peru has had 8 times more coronavirus deaths per capita than we have (and 3 times more than the US has) and there's no telling when it will stop. (They have vaccinated some people ... ~10% of their population).

Do we want to go to that situation? I don't.

We've spent more on vaccine doses than they have ... and we've had fewer deaths than they have ... and that is fine.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

You haven’t been around many people while they’re clearly at end of life. Sadly, I have, having been part of the decision to “let go” of both of my parents. Families make decisions sometimes when continuing life support is clearly futile.

I’ve also been there several times when the same decisions have been made by others.

It’s very much a thing to come to the conclusion that dragging on the inevitable is pointless, and sometimes cruel, and yes, medical care can very much be directed to “let people go”.

Another important aspect keep in mind on death statistics is some of these people have been on life-support for months and are finally being let go.

And yes, 133 days. Siri is on Crack apparently and I might have had a few too many Rye and Cokes around the pool yesterday to mentally compute it didn’t jive.

My questions and points still stand.

View attachment 49736

sounds to me like he’s never had to answer the “we can give them morphine to ‘ease the pain’ if you’d like?” question.

 

[GreyGhost]

sounds to me like he’s never had to answer the “we can give them morphine to ‘ease the pain’ if you’d like?” question.

Yup. "This dose could be detrimental to their health but they still appear to be in a lot of pain". Humane and a hell of a lot less paperwork and suffering than the current implementation of MAID.

 

[Dimitri]

You haven’t been around many people while they’re clearly at end of life.

I have, and am able to accept it. My comment was generalized. One case or one death seems to be too much for society when it comes to COVID.

Which is why society as a whole jumped on the idea of lockdowns and keeps promoting them.

Same way hundreds of thousands of kids were pulled out of in class learning by their parents. Even if every school age kid got COVID in Ontario, we are looking at about 85 deaths out of over 2 million.

Well StatsCan says 205 kids die every year. Do these parents make their kids live in a bubble wrapped bubble as well? Of course not. But society has decided COVID deaths are simply unacceptable.

 

[Evoex]

I have, and am able to accept it. My comment was generalized. One case or one death seems to be too much for society when it comes to COVID.

Which is why society as a whole jumped on the idea of lockdowns and keeps promoting them.

Same way hundreds of thousands of kids were pulled out of in class learning by their parents. Even if every school age kid got COVID in Ontario, we are looking at about 85 deaths out of over 2 million.

Well StatsCan says 205 kids die every year. Do these parents make their kids live in a bubble wrapped bubble as well? Of course not. But society has decided COVID deaths are simply unacceptable.

What middle ground would you deem acceptable?

 

[Wingboy]

One case or one death seems to be too much for society when it comes to COVID.

Bingo!
Which i why i get very upset when i hear, "well, he was 90 years old anyway".

 

[Dimitri]

What middle ground would you deem acceptable?

That's a middle ground that needs to be a personal choice. Public messaging of who is at risk of severe illness and death could have made it clear to people to make an informed choice.

Those that want to can work from home, order grocery delivery, and self isolate all they want.

Those who want to go outside, and still somewhat enjoy life should be able to do so.

While those in high risk categories should have had targetted support, such as grocery/food delivery services, and having proper PPE delivered being compensated by the government.

It has worked in other nations. Only thing that prevents it is our government's ineptitude. When it takes 3 different government offices to call you multiple times for contact tracing. You know they don't know what they are doing.

Bingo!
Which i why i get very upset when i hear, "well, he was 90 years old anyway".

Life is special because it's short. While we may all want to live forever that's never going to happen.

Those who wish to open up entirely say "but it's okay, they are likely all old and frail who are dying from COVID"

Those who cling onto hope that the vaccine works even with the variants "but it's okay, they are likely all old and frail who are dying after vaccinations".

The irony I think is lost on some people. They defend the old one day, and devalue them the next. Just to suit their agenda.

 

[jc100]

I have, and am able to accept it. My comment was generalized. One case or one death seems to be too much for society when it comes to COVID.

Which is why society as a whole jumped on the idea of lockdowns and keeps promoting them.

Same way hundreds of thousands of kids were pulled out of in class learning by their parents. Even if every school age kid got COVID in Ontario, we are looking at about 85 deaths out of over 2 million.

Well StatsCan says 205 kids die every year. Do these parents make their kids live in a bubble wrapped bubble as well? Of course not. But society has decided COVID deaths are simply unacceptable.

No you’re not. Every kid is a potential vector to infect another person. That’s why they were taken out of schools. Stop being disingenuous.

Infectious diseases infect people. That’s what they do. To stop infection you take away the cause of the infection or you prevent the pathway to the infection.

We couldn’t take away the cause initially as the vaccines weren’t online. We could take away the pathway…lock downs. Social distancing. That’s what we did. Now with vaccines online we are chipping away at the cause.

Perfect? No. But way way way better than doing nothing.