vaccine poll

[Brian P]

Totally correct. There needs to be guidelines based on age and health based risk factors being considered to give people a choice.

There ARE guidelines. Tried visiting anyone in a hospital or care home lately?

The problem is that until vaccine coverage is very high (we don't know the exact number needed) among the entire population, public health measures that are on the verge of public intolerance are barely able to contain spread of this particular virus and barely able to contain within hospital capacity.

If you stop short of that then see Brazil.

What sort of "guidelines based on age and health based risk factors" would you suggest? If you let the thirtysomethings socialize, they'll spread it to their sixtysomething parents. In case you haven't noticed, the twentysomethings and thirtysomethings have represented the greatest number of infections lately.

We ALL need to stay apart, stay outdoors, wear masks etc until a few weeks after being double-vaccinated ...

 

[Dimitri]

If you stop short of that then see Brazil.

You can stop plenty short of that with a better COVID case and death count then Canada and still have restaurants, retail and personal care services open. See Japan and South Korea.

Hell, have you ever bothered to look at the data from our own government? None of the places that keep being forced closed are the ones causing outbreaks in any measurable number.

Except for Toronto in December most everything was open September to December. Care to guess where our outbreaks were? Hair salons? Retail? Restaurants?

Nope, still firmly focused in government administered housing, healthcare and the warehousing that Ford didn't have the balls to shut down. That is the "Workplace - Other" category the province white washed it under.

 

[Brian P]

I won't dispute that the government has dropped the ball in several ways. Public transit, too.

Keep in mind that in Asian countries that have done well, "you will" wear this mask. "you will" put this contact-tracing app on your phone. As a business operator, "you will" have someone at the front door full time checking that "all" people entering your establishment check in with their contact-tracing app, and if you don't, "you will" shut down - and public compliance is good, because people understand why it is being done. Don't want to wear a mask? Stay home. Don't have a smartphone? Tough beans, get someone else to do your shopping for you. Don't want to comply (or you want to start a public protest against things that are being implemented for your own good)? Off to jail you go. (edit: There is no "age or health based risk factors" to this. Everyone has to do it. All public-facing businesses have to do it. Same for everyone.)

Just try doing that, in any western country.

 

[Dimitri]

I won't dispute that the government has dropped the ball in several ways.

Government run establishments experienced almost 70% of our outbreaks. During this period after "fixing" the problem over last summer.

Hair salons, nail salons and massage parlors account for 0.1% of cases. Yet those industries have been hit the hardest in our lockdowns.

It was all based on corporate interests and who had the power to sue the government. Amazon and other warehouses? Yup. Hair salons making $20 an hour? Not so much.

Keep in mind that in Asian countries that have done well, "you will" wear this mask. "you will" put this contact-tracing app on your phone.

It is a small price to pay for those who enjoy their freedoms, and perhaps preferable to ineffective lockdowns that punished everyone but the "super spreader" locations.

Also you forgot the $10,000 fines for violating quarantine, legitimately sealed to all but essential travel borders and mandatory testing for contact tracing. Which I actually have no problem with.

 

[Dimitri]

@Wingboy ... It's all government data, that's been published for almost a year. Freely downloadable, and a quick pivot table. Explains far more about government mismanagement then an opinion piece ever could.

Ontario COVID-19 outbreaks data - Ontario Data Catalogue

As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreaks in...

data.ontario.ca

 

[Wingboy]

@Wingboy ... It's all government data, that's been published for almost a year. Freely downloadable, and a quick pivot table. Explains far more about government mismanagement then an opinion piece ever could.

Ontario COVID-19 outbreaks data - Ontario Data Catalogue

As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreaks in...

data.ontario.ca

We know what has been done. Some right, some wrong. We know we are going in the right direction.
What do you want done now and in the future dealing with covid19? It's a simple question. Don't write something that brings an automatic tldr.

 

[nobbie48]

Sure you can, South Korea handled it just fine.

Implemented legitimate contact tracing with testing, $110 fines for not wearing masks in public, $11,000 fines for violating quarantine (with digital tracking to enforce it) and a year of jail time.

Among other measures, that still allowed small businesses to stay open, and their economy still being able to run.

They still managed to have a per capita death rate 18 times smaller then ours. That's 1,790% less...

Why? Because they learnt from SARS and didn't turn around and "wait for data" while we "locked down", but kept warehousing open, kept big box stores open, and screwed small retailers, restaurants and service providers.

I'm not following this thread so maybe a repeat comment.

South Korea is next to North Korea. Maybe being a stone's throw away from a country where you get shot for blinking your eyes at the wrong time has people more agreeable to following rules.

In self important Canada there would be rioting in the streets if we really locked down. Our leadership is as imposing as the late Don Knotts.

 

[Evoex]

I'm not following this thread so maybe a repeat comment.

South Korea is next to North Korea. Maybe being a stone's throw away from a country where you get shot for blinking your eyes at the wrong time has people more agreeable to following rules.

In self important Canada there would be rioting in the streets if we really locked down. Our leadership is as imposing as the late Don Knotts.

Bingo. People ***** and moan about restrictions and lockdowns and I just laugh at them.

We haven’t had a real lockdown. With all the brouhaha over staying at home but still shopping at Costco I’m curious to know the reaction if the government welded people doors shut.

 

[Brian P]

The thing that needs to get done now, more than anything else is ... get vaccinated!! And it is getting done. Most days they're adding 1% - 1.5% of the population to the total.

The thing that needs to get done soon (because it should already be done) is ... vaccine passports (or whatever you want to call them). Tough beans for the people who don't like it. Tell the lawyers to get stuffed. Most Canadians want it (I do). Harmonize whatever is done, with the EU's "covid certificate" system. Require anyone entering the country (by any method - not just air travel) to have a clear covid certificate (either 2 weeks past 2nd dose, or recovered from past infection, or some sort of diligent testing and quarantine regimen). I know the Americans are not on board with this. Too bad, we can't wait for them. Large indoor gatherings (indoor sports stadiums etc) it should be mandatory - let's have full sports stadiums back. If other private businesses want to make use of the covid certificate system - let them. (I think - and hope - we are beyond the point of having to require its use everywhere.)

In my business travels, I already fill out questionnaires and have my temperature checked and so forth, usually a few times per day. Flashing a covid-certificate QR code would be a whole lot faster and easier ...

 

[Dimitri]

What do you want done now and in the future dealing with covid19?

As simple of actually "following the data" they claim to do? It is all public data, yet ...

We have Ford penalizing small businesses who make up next to nil of our cases. But gives a pass to big warehousing and big box stores. And has yet to fix his own departments, who continuously make up most outbreaks.

And we have a Federal government that has yet to implement border controls which accounts for more cases in Ontario then outbreaks. Or NACI which has become a laughing stock in international news for flip flopping to suit our procurement blunders.

Gross incompetence of our government is the issue, not the individual.

 

[GreyGhost]

Gross incompetence of our government is the issue, not the individual.

It's not "or", it's "and". Yes, there has been gross incompetence at every level of government. College/Uni kids throwing huge parties causes outbreaks regardless of what the government has in place. The constant is everybody wants to blame somebody else and ignore their own contributions to the problem.

 

[Wingboy]

As simple of actually "following the data" they claim to do? It is all public data, yet ...

We have Ford penalizing small businesses who make up next to nil of our cases. But gives a pass to big warehousing and big box stores. And has yet to fix his own departments, who continuously make up most outbreaks.

And we have a Federal government that has yet to implement border controls which accounts for more cases in Ontario then outbreaks. Or NACI which has become a laughing stock in international news for flip flopping to suit our procurement blunders.

Gross incompetence of our government is the issue, not the individual.

I agree with almost all of your post except for "make up most outbreaks".
If it isn't fact is bs.

 

[Dimitri]

I agree with almost all of your post except for "make up most outbreaks".
If it isn't fact is bs.

The September to December outbreak data is right from the government. You can not like it, but it's the only period where most of Ontario's economy was open, and it was long after the government "implemented" measures for contact tracing of outbreaks, early on in the pandemic all outbreak data was pretty much LTC homes. So I am being "fair".

Again the link for the raw data I simply used a Pivot table on...

Ontario COVID-19 outbreaks data - Ontario Data Catalogue

As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreaks in...

data.ontario.ca

We have for September 1st to December 31st...

Government Related Outbreaks
15,104 of 22,001 is 68.7% of Cases

• Long Term Care - 7,819
• Retirement Homes - 2,367
• Schools - 1,986
• Hospitals - 1,487
• Group Homes/Supportive Housing - 853
• Congregate Other - 341
• Correctional Facilities - 157
• Shelters - 86
• Short Term Accommodation - 8

Non-Public Facing Private Sector Outbreaks
4,351 of 22,001 is 19.8% of Cases

• Workplace Other - 3,253
• Workplace Food Processing - 719
• Workplace Farm - 379

Public Facing Private Sector Outbreaks
1,854 of 22,001 is 8.4% of Cases

• Other Recreation - 524
• Bar/restaurant/night clubs - 450
• Retail - 436
• Recreational Fitness - 424
• Personal Care - 20

I'd say 68.7% is "most outbreaks" as it's above 2/3rds of them.

Numbers don't lie, they are just darn inconvenient when they don't match the narrative.

 

[Wingboy]

So you are saying the outbreaks were made up?
Yes or no.

 

[GreyGhost]

The September to December outbreak data is right from the government. You can not like it, but it's the only period where most of Ontario's economy was open, and it was long after the government "implemented" measures for contact tracing of outbreaks, early on in the pandemic all outbreak data was pretty much LTC homes. So I am being "fair".

Again the link for the raw data I simply used a Pivot table on...

Ontario COVID-19 outbreaks data - Ontario Data Catalogue

As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreaks in...

data.ontario.ca

We have for September 1st to December 31st...

Government Related Outbreaks
15,104 of 22,001 is 68.7% of Cases

• Long Term Care - 7,819
• Retirement Homes - 2,367
• Schools - 1,986
• Hospitals - 1,487
• Group Homes/Supportive Housing - 853
• Congregate Other - 341
• Correctional Facilities - 157
• Shelters - 86
• Short Term Accommodation - 8

Non-Public Facing Private Sector Outbreaks
4,351 of 22,001 is 19.8% of Cases

• Workplace Other - 3,253
• Workplace Food Processing - 719
• Workplace Farm - 379

Public Facing Private Sector Outbreaks
1,854 of 22,001 is 8.4% of Cases

• Other Recreation - 524
• Bar/restaurant/night clubs - 450
• Retail - 436
• Recreational Fitness - 424
• Personal Care - 20

I'd say 68.7% is "most outbreaks" as it's above 2/3rds of them.

Numbers don't lie, they are just darn inconvenient when they don't match the narrative.

Not all of your government related outbreaks are government controlled. Many LTC outbreaks were in privately owned/operated facilities. Yes, they are substantially funded from government money, but that is just cash and some level of oversight. Are shelters provincially run? Government is not a monolith, each layer of government has responsibilities and limits on what they are allowed to do. Lumping all "government" associated facilities together and you have the largest employer in Canada so of course they have the highest percentage of cases.

 

[Dimitri]

So you are saying the outbreaks were made up?

I'm saying the government's own data doesn't match the narrative they are pushing.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm saying the government's own data doesn't match the narrative they are pushing.

They are doing the same thing as everyone else. Don't look at me, look over there for the problem. Again, as government is not a monolith, much of their finger pointing is up or down to other layers of government.

 

[Wingboy]

I'm saying the government's own data doesn't match the narrative they are pushing.

Ok. Like i asked you before, what would you do differently?

 

[Dimitri]

Not all of your government related outbreaks are government controlled.

Actually they are, the Ministry of Health and Long Term care sets health and safety standards for that entire list and is responsible for enforcing them, and taking over if the standards are not met. Whether or not they are public or private.

 

[GreyGhost]

Actually they are, the Ministry of Health and Long Term care sets health and safety standards for that entire list and is responsible for enforcing them, and taking over if the standards are not met. Whether or not they are public or private.

They also set health and safety standards for food processing plants and shut them down if they do not comply but you placed those in private outbreaks.