Ontario should make winter tires mandatory. | Page 11 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Ontario should make winter tires mandatory.

fastar1 said:
The cheapest way (as unrealistic as it is) is to just buy $200 steelies, and expect each owner will mount them themselves, and assume that their summer and winter tires will wear out before they dry rot. That's $20 a year over 10 years before the steelies are garbage, so that's still $120 million in costs PER YEAR, vs. $20-$50 million in reduced crashes.

You figure all the extra fender benders and whatever else you made up accounts for the difference of $70-$100 million? Not very likely! In any cases, those incidents that aren't reported, are paid by each individual out of their own pocket for their own incompetence. Why should it even figure into the societal cost comparison?
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I don't claim to have the cost/benefit answer, just that it might be a wash because the numbers are harder than both of us think. In my personal case, I get better fuel mileage per km traveled on my snows vs. three-season tires because I use a narrower tire and they don't spin all the time. My three-season tires also last much longer without the abuse of spinning uselessly at every take-off. Are my fuel savings and reduced wear on the non-snows worth more than $20 a year? I don't have the data to prove it but I think so, if not, the reduced wear on the suspension probably covers it, or maybe the clutch.

I still don't know if they need to be mandated but I wouldn't mind if they were, the societal costs of traffic jams are real, though shaky if you try to pin a number to them. Maybe the C/B doesn't work for people who can just stay home when the roads are bad or have AWD, maybe a mandate would encourage them to get back on the roads and make things worse. I don't have all the answers but snows are right for me, I don't have the option of staying home when the roads are bad, and I'll encourage their use to anyone who will listen, even if it costs them $100 a year.

In the end, I'm just angry at the people who get in my way when they solution is so simple.
 
SunnY S said:
Quebec has the right idea. Snow tires are law.

Every year, its the same old (sad) story.

[h=1]Mother and son killed in Caledonia crash[/h]http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1296181--mother-and-son-killed-in-caledonia-crash

"The season’s first winter storm, mild as it was, wreaked havoc on roads across southern Ontario with the OPP reporting a steady stream of spinouts, vehicles into ditches and accidents on the regions’ highways."
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In quebec you can't ride because bikes don't have snows. I ride any time its 7 or above. So this law would be bad.
 
I'v never used winter tires and never had issue, all season tires are fine unless you have a rear wheel driver vehicle.

I have all seasons on my F-150 which can tow a 3000lb trailer up a 30 degree grate in 2 feet of snow with no issues, you are going to make me buy winter tires for this vehicle? 4x4 SUV, never had issues with this on all seasons either, and I drove my Jetta to and from Ottawa 20+ times last winter. I would not do this if I found the tires didn't provide enough safety in handling for the conditions.

Southern Ontario winters are nothing like Quebec, give me a break you can waste your money if you wan't don't force that decision on everyone else.
 
In and around the GTA, for the most part you can get around fine on all seasons if you take it easy for normal driving. Where winter tires really prove their worth over all seasons is in emergency stopping, something you cannot foresee or control.

I remember one winter driving on the 410 southbound and in front of me and to the next lane, a driver tried to do a last minute change to an off-ramp. She drove right through a pile of snow that gets left after the plow trucks do their work. That driver spun out and into my lane. It all happened so quickly that my only choice was to slam on the brakes. I stopped literally with my front bumper 1 foot in front of her front; she had spun all the way around. I could see the size of her pupils is how close we were. Had I been driving all seasons, I guarantee that I would have slammed right into her and at good speed. I will never drive through a winter without proper winter tires ever.

I believe this should be left to the individual as a personal choice though rather than government again taking on the role of big brother.
 
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Aslan said:
I don't claim to have the cost/benefit answer, just that it might be a wash because the numbers are harder than both of us think. In my personal case, I get better fuel mileage per km traveled on my snows vs. three-season tires because I use a narrower tire and they don't spin all the time. My three-season tires also last much longer without the abuse of spinning uselessly at every take-off. Are my fuel savings and reduced wear on the non-snows worth more than $20 a year? I don't have the data to prove it but I think so, if not, the reduced wear on the suspension probably covers it, or maybe the clutch.

I still don't know if they need to be mandated but I wouldn't mind if they were, the societal costs of traffic jams are real, though shaky if you try to pin a number to them. Maybe the C/B doesn't work for people who can just stay home when the roads are bad or have AWD, maybe a mandate would encourage them to get back on the roads and make things worse. I don't have all the answers but snows are right for me, I don't have the option of staying home when the roads are bad, and I'll encourage their use to anyone who will listen, even if it costs them $100 a year.

In the end, I'm just angry at the people who get in my way when they solution is so simple.
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I use a set of snow tires mounted on steel rims. My present set is on its sixth winter (a set of Pirellis). Oddly enough, my fuel economy is generally better with the snow tires than with the summer tires. This probably has to do with the colder air (denser) and no air conditioning. I also find that the snow tires are much better in the cold, wet weather even if it is just rain. A simple indicator is that when I look at the tire tracks on the pavement in the rear view mirror, there is a more visible "track" in the wet than with my summer tires. I take this to mean that the winter tires displaced more of the surface water.
 
To argue that you've driven years on all seasons without an incident and dismiss the benefits of snow or ice tires is too funny. Winter or ice tires do perfom better for the conditions they are designed.

To argue they are a money grab or additional cost, it's silly too. You are extending the life of the original equipment tires so, you don't have to replace the original equipement as often.

Making it mandatory to have them in Ontario? Now that is arguable and I think the enforcement will be as stringent as the littering laws we have. The law exists but, the enforcement doesn't.

I owned a beat up VW Rabbit that I could thread a needle with it on the road with all seasons. I also had an older Mustang that even with mighty Blizzaks wasn't the greatest in the winter. So, the vehicle driving characteristics and the driver themselves can make more of an impact than the tires themselves.

I do laugh at all the AWD SUVs that require a winch or tow because their ability to get moving inspires false confidence in their ability to manuvre or stop.

I also endorse and support the benefits of winter/ice tires. They simply perform better and when you drive 60k/year in all weather conditions, I'll take every advantage I can get. Someone that drives a few thousand a year and only goes from home to the grocery store? Maybe they can wait out the conditions and drive for their milk and bread when road conditions are better.
 
After doing some (actually lots of) research I decided that it's worth the extra safety margin. I ordered 4 steel wheels, and Blizzak 70 tires from Costco. TPMS sensors are coming in from Amazon.com. My wife will be doing a lot of travelling this winter for work and I'd feel a whole lot better about it if she had decent winter tires instead of 3 seasons.

There's a few guys here that should be members of the Flat Earth Society, either too ignorant or too proud to accept the positive aspects that proper winter tires provide.
 
I feel like we are getting to the beating of a dead horse territory, but I am also in the snow tire camp, although I don't think they should be mandated.

I went years on all-seasons only, and a couple of those years were in North Bay. I couldn't believe how much better traction I got once I tried winter tires, and it is not just for snow. The rubber on winters is softer than all-seasons in colder temps and they even have more traction when the roads are bare but temps are cooler.

For me the cost is negligible, and I am damn cheap! The way I look at it, instead of driving 12 months on my all seasons I drive 6 + 6 so both sets last twice as long. You really are not spending much more and you are giving yourself better control. For a forum dedicated to motor enthusiasts, I thought this one would be a no brainer.
 
I ran with all-seasons in winter for years. Things were fine, but every couple of years, there'd be a butt-puckering moment on the highway when I hit a patch of black ice and the car would begin to lose control. Once, I wrapped my car around a telephone pole after some black ice in a corner. Another time, I came within a couple feet of a ditch after spinning out and crossing the on-coming lanes.

I'm a fairly capable driver, and I would always go and "practice" in icy and snow-covered parking lots at the start of the season.

If anything, winter tires take some of the "fun" out of winter driving. There is a marked difference between all-seasons and winter tires on ice. After a winter with winter tires, I can say without question that they have a role.

Maybe they're not as necessary inside the Toronto city limits, but head in any direction outside of the city, and you see less-travelled and less-cleared roads.
 
This.

And...

1. No one wants a new regulation forcing them do spend more money, even if it is mostly only a higher capital cost that will eventually be recovered through longer overall lifetime of both sets of tires. It comes down to setting a standard that strikes a balance. Winter tires are not only mandatory in Quebec, they are also required in Czech republic, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, Norway, Romania, Slovenia and Sweden from December thru March. Either the tire lobby is very effective, or these countries have come to a conclusion that requiring winter tires strikes a fairer balance between cost and safety.

2. The term "snow tires" is a misnomer. They are called "winter tires". M+S all-seasons have treads designed for snow, as do winter tires. The main benefit of winter tires is in the compound: it is optimized to grip better below 7 degrees. Many all-seasons are as good as plastic by -10 degrees. So whether it snows or not, the benefits will become more remarkable as the temperature dips below 7, and will be dramatically more remarkable below freezing especially if there has been precipitation. Sure, you can still drive with all-seasons even in the worst conditions. But realize that you may have doubled your stopping distance if you hit ice. I doubt most are compensating by driving 45km/h in 60k zones when it is an average chilly morning December thru March in GTA. And BTW, the 5% drop in deaths in Quebec is remarkable perhaps because by 2005 90% of drivers already used winter tires. So there wasn't that much brand new rubber on the road after all. If the same factor held true in Ontario where only 50% of drivers use winter tires, would we get a 25% drop in fatalities? How much is that worth?

3. Because a low probability event like a car accident (yes, on average it doesn't happen THAT often) DOESN'T happen to you while driving with all-seasons for 25 years, doesn't mean that it was a safe choice. This is not so much about your life, but about others' lives that might be affected because you didn't notice that black ice, or because that kid ran into the street in front of you. It's like saying we should do away with child-seat laws because when I grew up my dad drove with me on his lap and hey I'm still alive!

4. Who can argue with the need to improve the overall skill of drivers? (Ok, some can and will argue I'm sure. What, mandatory driver training?? What right does the government have to tell me how to drive?) I am here to break the news to you: discussion forums like this around the world are filled with posters claiming that drivers in THEIR region are the worst. Hey, it ain't a competition! But seriously, to somehow attribute the cause of accidents to immigration is just plain wrong-headed and likely prejudiced. Please see your anger management specialist.
http://www.magazine.utoronto.ca/blogs/bad-drivers-immigrants-donald-redelmeier/
(For those who hate clicking on links, accident rates among new Canadians is half that of "experienced" Canadians.)

5. Ironically perhaps, all-season tires were invented in the first place as a result of lobbying: of the car manufacturers who wanted one factory-installed tire to sell on any vehicle at any time of year.

As a business mentor once told me though, try to make sure that facts and metrics never get in the way of a really good story :)

Last thing you have to ask yourself: how many bad drivers believe that THEY are, THEMSELVES, bad drivers? I know I am not one of those.


nakkers said:
To argue that you've driven years on all seasons without an incident and dismiss the benefits of snow or ice tires is too funny. Winter or ice tires do perfom better for the conditions they are designed.

To argue they are a money grab or additional cost, it's silly too. You are extending the life of the original equipment tires so, you don't have to replace the original equipement as often.

Making it mandatory to have them in Ontario? Now that is arguable and I think the enforcement will be as stringent as the littering laws we have. The law exists but, the enforcement doesn't.

I owned a beat up VW Rabbit that I could thread a needle with it on the road with all seasons. I also had an older Mustang that even with mighty Blizzaks wasn't the greatest in the winter. So, the vehicle driving characteristics and the driver themselves can make more of an impact than the tires themselves.

I do laugh at all the AWD SUVs that require a winch or tow because their ability to get moving inspires false confidence in their ability to manuvre or stop.

I also endorse and support the benefits of winter/ice tires. They simply perform better and when you drive 60k/year in all weather conditions, I'll take every advantage I can get. Someone that drives a few thousand a year and only goes from home to the grocery store? Maybe they can wait out the conditions and drive for their milk and bread when road conditions are better.
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Everyone keeps repeating that all season tires don't stop as well as winter tires in cold temperatures on dry roads. I looked for tests that compare winter tires vs all seasons on dry roads and I couldn't find anything. Can anyone find an independent test?
 
daught said:
Everyone keeps repeating that all season tires don't stop as well as winter tires in cold temperatures on dry roads. I looked for tests that compare winter tires vs all seasons on dry roads and I couldn't find anything. Can anyone find an independent test?
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http://www.tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/2012_Winter_Tire_Report_7.pdf

For anyone to lazy to read, the report basically says that on dry surfaces just above the freezing mark, a car equipped with all seasons has a 30% longer stopping distance than when its equipped with winter tires.
 
Which I don't understand. If you've ever touched different tires in the cold, you can feel that some are almost like hockey pucks and some are still pliable... So how can people not just believe it?
 
Boom King said:
http://www.tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/2012_Winter_Tire_Report_7.pdf

For anyone to lazy to read, the report basically says that on dry surfaces just above the freezing mark, a car equipped with all seasons has a 30% longer stopping distance than when its equipped with winter tires.
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Sorce of that quote? Mahler... I assume John Mahler. Who is he? Is that his opinion(sounds like it)? A test? Not enough info to make that quote relevant. Most info in that PDF comes from tire sellers. Tire rack, 1010tire, Canadian tire.

The University of Alaska test is by far most trustworthy. It might be a bit outdated but the numbers seem much more realistic.

Dont get me wrong, I love winter tires and I find them very useful for SOME cases, but their marketing is discussing.
 
There are a lot of variables when it comes to winter tires vs all season. Some of them are:

-How performance orientated are the "all season" tires, no siping in performance tires (large tread blocks) usually equals poor winter traction?
-How wide are the tires, wider tires usually equal poor winter traction (less pounds per square inch)?
-How long is the tread wear interval for the all season tires, longer tread wear usually equals harder compound and poor winter traction?
-Then there are other factors like does the vehicle have stability control, ABS (if it is really old), what is the weight distribution of the vehicle, what is the absolute weight of the vehicle, centre of gravity, etc.

There are of course more. But based on all these variables the entire idea of mandating winter tires it just silly, because it will not benefit everyone.

Softer compound all seasons with good siping, that are not too wide, on a vehicle that has good balance, good control features, that is not a top heavy tank and there will be little advantage to the winter tires IMO and IME.

Harder compound tires, that are too performance oriented and you WILL notice a big difference. In fact I run winter and summer tires on both cars to take advantage of better summer performance (in summer harder compound for tire life, large tread blocks for cornering, no siping, etc...). AND better performance in winter (all the opposites...).

The problem with the empirical testing is the tires and vehicles involved can sway the results from being dramatic to being inconsequential, all depending on how the test is stacked and the desired outcome.
 
The other day when we had slush/snow in brampton (late last week?!)
I LOVED the feeling of just testing the surface. Makes you prepared to encounters to see what kind of traction you have on it. Of course done in a "safe environment" (aka empty parking lot)
Some of it can go from grippy to slippy SO FAST.

Drive safe people :)
 
This is useless info for most drivers since most will be careless in winter driving. Snow tires or not.

Boom King said:
http://www.tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/2012_Winter_Tire_Report_7.pdf

For anyone to lazy to read, the report basically says that on dry surfaces just above the freezing mark, a car equipped with all seasons has a 30% longer stopping distance than when its equipped with winter tires.
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This winter has been a no show. People who ran out and got winters must feel stupid.
 
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BLUE_KAWI said:
This is useless info for most drivers since most will be careless in winter driving. Snow tires or not.
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Guys, someone asked for a report. I found one and posted a link. I didn't write the thing. As with anything you read, form your own conclusions and decide for yourself if it's useful or not, don't decide for others.
 
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