Pretty much everyone I know has a KTM 2t the Japanese bikes are so far behind it isn't funny
Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
KTM's Parent Company Isn't Doing Hot, Shifting More Production to China and India
- Thread starter TK4
- Start date
Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Most people buying their 790's know they're made in India and they sell a ton of them.
Desert/GNCC or MX go ahead and pick your favourite colour 4T as they're all pretty similar.
Watch any serious woods race and other than a small smattering of Sherco/Beta riders you'll see 90% of the field on Austrian 2T's and 1% on a 4T. If mine was stolen I'd buy another and I wouldn't care where it was made.
Desert/GNCC or MX go ahead and pick your favourite colour 4T as they're all pretty similar.
Watch any serious woods race and other than a small smattering of Sherco/Beta riders you'll see 90% of the field on Austrian 2T's and 1% on a 4T. If mine was stolen I'd buy another and I wouldn't care where it was made.
Totally agree.
KTM dirt bikes may have a reputation for being unreliable and maintenance-intensive, but it's well-deserved because their engines are tuned to the teats for maximum performance.
They were meant to be competition bikes, which means constant maintenance after every race, hence their motto: "Ready to Wrench"...
It's my understanding (and limited experience) that the EXC-F four strokes have been quite reliable with reasonable/obsessive/proper maintenance, particularly when used as intended on a mix of road and dirt but favoring dirt. From the original 400/525 through the 450/530 and now a couple iterations of 350/500 they have been quite good. Personally I have not had any issues with my previous 530 or current 250 aside from a bit of kill switch corrosion preventing start up.
How have yours been?
You also have a 901 Norden in the family which, if one believed everything on the internet has likely just had its camshafts explode in your garage or might the next time you even just look at it let alone try to ride it.
I expect you have a relationship with your dealer. Have you had the cams looked at, or heard anything about failures?
Because while the shrieking on ADVRider forums and elsewhere continues from non-owners, brand-haters and the occasional disgruntled customer, I wouldn't mind hearing from somebody who actually owns one.
I'm pretty fastidious about the oil changes on both the 500s and the 901, so no engine problems to report. The 890 engines affected were previous model years, so they had fixed the follower/cam shaft issue by 2023, or so they say.
I'm probably going to jinx myself, but my EXC has been pretty reliable outside of a defective rear caliper that decided to crack into two pieces out on the trails. My wife's Huskies, both the FE501 and the 901 have had quite a laundry list of non-engine related issues, especially the 901 which is to be expected as it's a brand new model. I've been tracking her 901 problems and they seem to be a different set of niggles that don't overlap with the 890s, curiously.
Never
Never had any issues with any of my KTMs including the 890 Adv r that I just sold.Bought a 24 Husqvarna 501s hopefully they are as good as they are said to be in all my research I have done.
Aens (a few posts up) has a 790 and is a high-mileage rider. No camshaft issues yet. He had a running-hot issue this past summer, which IIRC turned out to be a bad thermostat (or radiator cap? don't remember - both things were under discussion), and that was a cheap fix and could happen to anything.
The number of engines with camshaft problems is surely quite low on a percentage basis. My own somewhat-educated-but-not-personal-experience opinion is that due to the nature of the design, frequent start-stop cycles (short trips and thus frequent cranking and starting) and high idling time are probably factors in who encounters problems. That's on top of the usual factors like oil changes left too long, incorrect oil viscosity or specifications, etc. The problem for KTM is that a number of these owners were treated abysmally early on, and went public with their displeasure. Can't do that in the internet age. Having owned German vehicles in the past (and dealt with German-built machinery in the past!), I'm rather familiar with "ve have designed ze perfect maschinen, all problems are because of the user". Mercedes-Benz (almost) never has recalls, but that doesn't mean they don't have problems!
Priller
Well-known member
The guys on the Front End Chatter podcast did a relatively deep dive into this after one of them got a fairly long interview with the KTM head of marketing. Sounds like the causes of failure are mostly related to finger follower manufacturer tolerance and possibly followers that were too hard, resulting in excessive cam wear. The fix there was to tighten manufacturing tolerances and adjust the metallurgy in the followers, as well as widen them. They also had issues with milling swarf plugging the oil channels in the heads, which they have apparently fixed by both modifying the manufacturing process as well as adding a replaceable filter ahead of some openings.
They discussed at length whether this was a bigger problem than typical, and while the only folks who know that for sure are KTM, the self-reported numbers don't suggest they were. What was problematic was they basically told people to pound sand for years and years, and then admitted they've known about this problem since 2021 when they made the above noted changes, but didn't tell anyone about it. Contrast with Aprilia, who swapped out entire engines no-questions-asked when an early manufacturing defect was discovered in the RS660 motors, or Honda who did the same with the VFR1200.
If anyone is interested in the discussion (as well as the audio from the interview with the KTM exec, here's a link (note it is from well before the true extent of their financial issues was known, but they do see some massive red flags that they comment on):
Front End Chatter: Front End Chatter #198
Edit: Skip to about 35:30 for the KTM interview and discussion
Last edited:
TK4
Well-known member
A lot of the MotoGP money comes from Red Bull. It would be interesting to find out how much.
If ALL the money isn't coming from Red Bull then they need to bail, and may have no choice.
The old saying, "If you find yourself in a hole; STOP DIGGING." is pretty appropriate here.
It's a shame. They had a pretty good thing going with high quality off road bikes and a careful entry into large ADV and dual sports.
Then they went crazy. Constant new models and new engines and expensive redesigns, brand acquisitions that had virtually zero unique or valuable tech to go with it, new models that seemed to be more throwing darts than actual meeting a lucrative, but unmet demand (did ANYBODY ask for an 890 SMT?), building a battery off road bike that didn't sell and then doubling down and building a NEW one, a large line up of electric bicycles that don't sell, and reducing their quality control to ramp up production to a level that the market couldn't absorb.
I've been a really happy customer of theirs going back to my seemingly indestructible 1999 300EXC. It's likely the bike that brought me the most joy to ride of any bike I've ever owned, and I've been happy with my 950 ADV, 990 SMT, 530EXC, 1090 ADV and my Husky FE250. They deserve all the grief they've created for themselves as it was brought on by arrogance leading to multiple bad decisions, which ended up in a cascade of crap.
I read that KTM spends €70MM a year for their MotoGP racing program. € is about par with the USD today.
Not much is documented about Red Bull's sponsorship, but MotoGP title sponsorship typically runs between €6-€15MM depending on the team's visibility. If RB is kicking in the top end of that number, then KTM's commitment would be around €55MM till the end of December 2025, which marks the end of their current contract with Dorna and MotoGP.
If KTM's $1.5B debt is accurate, then $55MM is a but a drop in the bucket and not worth defaulting due to the penalties associated with prematurely withdrawing from MotoGP.
More KTM anecdotes:
Currently, there are 100,000 units of unsold inventory that KTM has to move. In 2023, Pierer Mobility sold around 381,000 unit of KTM, Husky, GasGas. This year's sales are projected to come in at much less than that.
In BC, dealers here seem to gotten a massive incentive from the factory to move 2024 stock. My buddy just picked up an 890 Adventure R, (normal MSRP $17.5K) for $12.5K. This $5K trunk money seems to be across the board as multiple local dealers have slashed their prices by this amount:
www.facebook.com
Just perusing the ads in ON and QC, the incentive seems to be around $2k-$3K.
My buddy picked up one of those $12.5K 2024 890 Adventure R on a whim, knowing full well the warranty might not be worth the paper it's printed on next season, not to mention parts availability.
Currently, there are 100,000 units of unsold inventory that KTM has to move. In 2023, Pierer Mobility sold around 381,000 unit of KTM, Husky, GasGas. This year's sales are projected to come in at much less than that.
In BC, dealers here seem to gotten a massive incentive from the factory to move 2024 stock. My buddy just picked up an 890 Adventure R, (normal MSRP $17.5K) for $12.5K. This $5K trunk money seems to be across the board as multiple local dealers have slashed their prices by this amount:
Log into Facebook
Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
www.facebook.com
Just perusing the ads in ON and QC, the incentive seems to be around $2k-$3K.
My buddy picked up one of those $12.5K 2024 890 Adventure R on a whim, knowing full well the warranty might not be worth the paper it's printed on next season, not to mention parts availability.
Offer them 20K for two. Then you have spare parts and you aren't far off otd pricing for one last week.
Priller
Well-known member
It's actually close to €3B in debt per KTM's own filings as part of their voluntary restructuring application to the courts.
What will tell will be how the restructuring affects the various Bierer Mobility AG holdings, including the various companies that operate race teams across the world. As pointed out in the Soup article, bankruptcy allows renegotiation of various contracts.
I think the question is more whether they have the liquid cash to fund ongoing operations of the various race team companies. If they don't, it won't matter whether it's good value or not, the teams will have to shut down. Depending how the restructuring is shaped, and who is deciding what is and isn't necessary for ongoing operations, decisions will have to be made as to what is worth funding.
KTM has been publically adamant that the race operations will continue, but of course they are. Until decisions are actually made, they have to say that. They also have said everything was fine, then said they 'only' needed a nine figure cash infusion, all of which has proven to be untrue, so they definitely an unreliable narrator.
Time will tell. I don't think anybody, including the board at KTM, knows how this will play out. What is clear is that Bierer Mobility is in huge trouble, way more trouble than anybody outside the boardroom knew until very recently. And keeping seemingly luxury operations like race teams going while thousands are laid off in Austria is very bad optics, regardless of how small the relative expense is compared to the whole company.
Is @Lightcycle baller enough yet to bring MVA under private ownership? It would be an easy one for Pierier to sell off to raise funds.
Now that you mention it... the Norden 901 shares quite a few parts with the 890...
Unfortunately, I went ahead a did a thing literally days before this KTM incentive was announced.
