KTM's Parent Company Isn't Doing Hot, Shifting More Production to China and India

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Mad Mike said:
3) Quality Issues hurt the brand. It's one thing to have quality issues that you acknowledge and make right. It's another when you deny them and make it difficult for loyal customers. KTM has done a lot of the latter which has hurt the brand.
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Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
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Pick one tank badge and run with it.
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
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100% agree. They're competing with themselves.

For 2025 there 6 versions of the 500cc street legal enduro. 3 KTM badged, 1 GasGas, and 2 Husqvarna with prices ranging from mid $15k to just over $17k before taxes. The 3 base models from KTM, Husky & Gas Gas are essentially the same bike while the higher priced KTM & Husky have some upgraded parts from the accessory book and unique graphics.
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
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I think they've been doing dirtbikes for too long: 50cc, 65cc, 85cc, 125cc, 150cc, 250cc, 300cc, 250cc 4T, 350cc 4T, 450cc 4T, 500cc 4T.

That kind of mentality seems to have spilled over into their ADV and Street line-up...
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
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This is another 'marketing' trick that is designed to make things look better than they might be. Adding variations of the same item allows you to stuff the channel (dealers) with 2x of ostensibly the same item. That strategy works when you're growing or demand meets or exceeds supply, it's black death if you continue to produce more than you are selling.

Then add in the Husq which doubles it again. Then GasGas.

Harley Davidson, are you watching? Shopping? Nothing like watching a hostile takeover!
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
Definitely agree with this but at the same time people will buy an exciting machine if it's unmatched by others and this has helped them.
I also feel they make too many sizes of the same bike:
Duke - 1390/990/790/390/250
Adventure - 1390 (3 versions)/890 (2 versions), 790/390

You don't need a 700+800+900cc model. Pick one size middle weight and run with it.
Click to expand...

Outsider looking in but I can't even tell the difference between a lot of these models. They need a small-medium-big of each style that they choose to make. That's it. The displacement variations that they sell in order to address licensing restrictions in specific markets (e.g. the 125 and 200 versions of the 390 Duke) shouldn't exist in the markets without those restrictions.

Some of the displacement variations came about allegedly because of first Euro 5 and then Euro 5+ emission standards, but if that's really the case, why do the previous versions still exist? Make 'em all the same. Yamaha re-did the CP3 engine for Euro 5+ but the customer wouldn't know it, it's functionally the same to the end user and the bikes that contain that engine carried on.
 
Brian P said:
Outsider looking in but I can't even tell the difference between a lot of these models. They need a small-medium-big of each style that they choose to make. That's it. The displacement variations that they sell in order to address licensing restrictions in specific markets (e.g. the 125 and 200 versions of the 390 Duke) shouldn't exist in the markets without those restrictions.

Some of the displacement variations came about allegedly because of first Euro 5 and then Euro 5+ emission standards, but if that's really the case, why do the previous versions still exist? Make 'em all the same. Yamaha re-did the CP3 engine for Euro 5+ but the customer wouldn't know it, it's functionally the same to the end user and the bikes that contain that engine carried on.
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From the dirtbike world, the displacement differences are due to competition regulations for all the different classes of MX racing.

As for the street-side, KTM could easily comply with the restrictions on beginner rider horsepower regulations by throttling the higher hp bikes instead of tooling for a completely different engine displacement.

In the UK, beginner riders (A2 license-holders) are limited to 35 kW (48hp) of power, so Ducati has depowered versions of most of the bikes in their lineup:


Much cheaper than creating a new engine for all these bikes.
 
Lightcycle said:
They also ramped up production of E-Bikes (bicycles, not motorcycles) after sales went through the roof during the pandemic, and they struggled to keep up with demand.

Then post-COVID... nobody bought E-Bikes anymore, leaving them with excess inventory and factories primed and tooled for pandemic-numbers demand.
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That's no excuse - no manufacturer is ever surprised about excess inventories, when their channels get choked it's because of mismanagement or sales manipulation.

When sales fall below production rates, a good company holds production. A poorly managed company keeps producing until a crisis stops them. That's what happened to KTM.
 
Mad Mike said:
That's no excuse - no manufacturer is ever surprised about excess inventories, when their channels get choked it's because of mismanagement or sales manipulation.

When sales fall below production rates, a good company holds production. A poorly managed company keeps producing until a crisis stops them. That's what happened to KTM.
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It wasn't an excuse. It's just what happened.

Never implied they were a well-managed company, because obviously they aren't...
 
KTM reported today that they owe €2.9B (!), which is astonishing because they reported a debt of €1.47B on June 30. To have doubled that debt in the space of five months suggests either some terrible terms for missing payments or the numbers were being fudged back in June. No wonder Bajaj and CFMoto weren't banging down the door to do a takeover.

On the one hand, it's hard to imagine a company with as much market share and established product lines going away entirely, on the other I can't see them finding a way to bridge a debt gap that wide in order to maintain operations. Not to mention the sales dropping even further as buyers stay away for fear of buying a bike without warranty support etc.

Totally, totally crazy. Unlike that miserable pr!ck at Soup, I'm not going to dance on their metaphorical graves, though. Too many blue collar folks in Austria are going to be out of a job for this to be anything but awful.
 
Priller said:
KTM reported today that they owe €2.9B (!), which is astonishing because they reported a debt of €1.47B on June 30. To have doubled that debt in the space of five months suggests either some terrible terms for missing payments or the numbers were being fudged back in June. No wonder Bajaj and CFMoto weren't banging down the door to do a takeover.

On the one hand, it's hard to imagine a company with as much market share and established product lines going away entirely, on the other I can't see them finding a way to bridge a debt gap that wide in order to maintain operations. Not to mention the sales dropping even further as buyers stay away for fear of buying a bike without warranty support etc.

Totally, totally crazy. Unlike that miserable pr!ck at Soup, I'm not going to dance on their metaphorical graves, though. Too many blue collar folks in Austria are going to be out of a job for this to be anything but awful.
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Wow. That's sad. I wonder how long they will keep pretending that "restructuring" is not bankruptcy? A friend's kid is a solid motocross racer and has gotten a ton of stuff on ktm's dime. I wonder what next year looks like for him.
 
Priller said:
KTM reported today that they owe €2.9B (!),
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3 billion euro is like 8000 euro for every bike they built last year. Obviously this would have been accumulated over the past few years but it's still a few thousand euro per unit. Ouch.
 
Brian P said:
3 billion euro is like 8000 euro for every bike they built last year. Obviously this would have been accumulated over the past few years but it's still a few thousand euro per unit. Ouch.
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Even crazier, if their numbers are accurate and not 'creative accounting', the €1.43B lost since July 1 represents €11,140 per bike (!!!!) if the ~150000 production from the first half of the year is extrapolated over the five months since. It's sort of hard to fathom.

Meanwhile, they've been doing stuff like buying MV Agusta. It's like someone going on holiday paid with CC because the HELOC is maxed. I get that from someone not schooled in personal finance, but not from a multi-billion Euro manufacturing corporation. I have a feeling endless business school papers will be written about this, in the same way that the fall and resurrection of Fender and HD have been analysed in detail.
 
Brian P said:
Outsider looking in but I can't even tell the difference between a lot of these models. They need a small-medium-big of each style that they choose to make. That's it. The displacement variations that they sell in order to address licensing restrictions in specific markets (e.g. the 125 and 200 versions of the 390 Duke) shouldn't exist in the markets without those restrictions.
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Duke - 990/790
The 790 brought back makes sense. CFMoto released the 800NK this year with the exact same engine, frame and componentry. The 790 re-release is essentially a parts bin resurrection. Also, the non-R 890 vs 790 was silly but there's 'enough' differences between the 990 and the 790 from a rider experience point of view.
790 -> 890 = Euro5 engine with 'model refresh' enhancements
890 -> 990 = all new and Euro5+
390 - India engine size. Already making them and global homolog'd so why not?
250 - Asia engine size. Same story, already making and global homolog'd so why not?

Adventure - 1390 (3 versions) - This is a common idea now. The biggest dig about ADV bike owners was who actually takes their adventure bike off road vs treating it like an SUV?

The S version(street) having the regular version vs the EVO edition (semiactive suspension, radar cruise,AMT(their version of DCT)) is also a legit option according to the very vocal minority.

It also doesn't help that KTM's design philosophy attracts all the crazies. If you check a variety of KTM forums, it's filled with people who'd give their first born to KTM on one day and then self-immolate themselves in protest the next.

I would be in the market for a 990 Duke R or 1390 GT but my 790 Duke is still going strong at 56,200km. It's so hard to justify with the economic outlook as it is to make a purchase though, and I think thats the problem right there.
 
Priller said:
KTM reported today that they owe €2.9B (!), which is astonishing because they reported a debt of €1.47B on June 30. To have doubled that debt in the space of five months suggests either some terrible terms for missing payments or the numbers were being fudged back in June. No wonder Bajaj and CFMoto weren't banging down the door to do a takeover.
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If I were CF-Moto or Bajaj I'd be waiting to see how this all plays out.
If KTM goes for a complete dump either of those players would likely be able to pick the company up from the receivers for ten cents on the dollar.
 
TK4 said:
If I were CF-Moto or Bajaj I'd be waiting to see how this all plays out.
If KTM goes for a complete dump either of those players would likely be able to pick the company up from the receivers for ten cents on the dollar.
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If the bikes are not produced in Austria anymore who is going to buy a Chinese KTM?
 
canuckwr250 said:
If the bikes are not produced in Austria anymore who is going to buy a Chinese KTM?
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What are the choices there are no other companies left in the dirt bike space. maybe they keep the Austrian factory.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 
Scuba Steve said:
What are the choices there are no other companies left in the dirt bike space. maybe they keep the Austrian factory.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
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Around me there is a lot of honda love. There are a couple 250f's and a handful of 250rx's.
 
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