Hiring Immigrants instead of " our own people "

[Moreno636]

Yup. I know where you're coming from and agree with you. Some people are legitimately racist and single out certain groups, but the professions generally are not this way. The US is a close neighbour and I suspect that certain schools there have equivalency based on their reputation and curriculum, ethics and standards. Maybe the UK..etc. I suspect that reputable and established schools in places like Japan, China etc. will also be granted equivalency. The problem is, there are thousands, millions of schools that offer degrees that sound like a certain type of degree and don't actually produce people of a high-enough standard for doing a specific job. The profession has to assess the school and decide whether the school produces graduates of a sufficient quality to do what they will be licensed to do. If someone graduates from a school in a country with poor professional control, that has 10 graduates a year, and has over 20,000 schools in the country, what are the odds that our professional body has checked and certified that they're competent? So they throw it on the individual and say "Write these exams and you're qualified." Whether they choose to do so or not is up to them. Just because someone says they are a better engineer than ours, whatever country they are from, doesn't make it so.

I totally agree that it is practically logical to standardize education levels from one countries schools to another countries school. Its damn near impossible. But that shouldnt curb us or make it damn near impossible for QUALIFIED professionals to receive equivalent accreditation.

I also agree that we need to have a standard that these professionals should be held to. But what I would propose is have the schools present a case why they should receive the "Canadian Standard" (working title), have them present a case why we should accept their graduates as equals. Have that same board that tests and evaluates the individual, evaluate these schools and their submissions. Heck have these schools pay for it...I guarantee with 100% certainty that every major and prestigious will pay any amount (so price it accordingly) to have that on their ad brochures and TV spots in their native countries. This way when you get an individual professional from an "Canadian Standard" accredit university you now have a verified and quantifiable commodity.

 

[OpenGambit]

Why is this a nightmare? Secondly I assume you would ask an individual to write a test and appear before a panel if the graduated from a med school in the US, UK, France etc as well??

We totally do this. I have to take courses if I want to practice in the UK, pass the bar in the US. etc.

 

[Moreno636]

What it means is you can paid to have the necessary paper work forged to pass through customs like a passport, school records, masters degree, certificate of trade, it's doesn't mean you can actually perform open heart surgery or lay a gas pipe. People will lie, cheat and steal to getting to this country and if the only way to speed up the process is to claim your a professional when you're not, guess what happens. These refugees have nothing to lose except getting deported back to hell. If it makes the difference getting in...I'll fake being a doctor if it gets me ahead of the line.

Wouldnt these same people put the same amount of resources into cheating at a test??

 

[Moreno636]

We totally do this. I have to take courses if I want to practice in the UK, pass the bar in the US. etc.

Yes but your degree is never put into question. Yes you may have to pass local standardized testing in whatever form to get familiar with local nuances and procedure. But, your knowledge base as that professional is never put into question.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

In what quantifiable way?

Why, in the only way that matters. Their schools have largely been vetted for quality and content of course information. Comparisons and deficiencies have been noted, where applicable.

*EDIT* The standards are often set by the profession, for minimum educational standards, rather than the educational institutions. If the schools are going to present people as being properly trained, then they have to meet the requisite criteria set by the profession.

 

[Moreno636]

Why, in the only way that matters. Their schools have largely been vetted for quality and content of course information. Comparisons and deficiencies have been noted, where applicable.

They have?? By who and when? Where is this information?

 

[invictus43]

I met a Chinese engineer who got his degree at a university in England. He couldn't get a job here because his degree didn't say U of T. He went back to school to get a U of T degree.

No offense, but that's complete crap.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

They have?? By who and when? Where is this information?

LSUC, CMA, etc.. I don't feel like doing your research, for you

 

[killerkeith]

1. This makes zero sense whatsoever. It's a FACT that medical universities in India are more advanced than they are here in Canada. How does one "forge a document" to disprove this? You're confused about what I said. Please reread it.

2. We'll see how you feel about that if you ever want to move to the UK, US, Australia, etc. I can see it now. "Sir, you must have a minimum of $1 mil. CAD in your bank account plus real assets for us to consider your application." You: "That's not fair! Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Only the privileged get to move to your elitist country!"

3. These people already "paid their dues." Those 20-somethings fresh out of college haven't experienced the real world yet. I'd rather have an immigrant who actually knows what they're doing work with me than a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed 21 y/o who doesn't know jack shitte. Moreover, you'd be singing a very different tune if you moved out of Canada, to the US for example and they pulled that on you. Sorry, killerkeith, your PhD in Chemical Engineering doesn't fly here. But we do have some openings at the local gas station.

4. Oh, please. I made a valid, critical point about the interconnectedness of complaints surrounding immigrants and ethnocentricity and you're attempting to disprove me with simple subjectivist fuff. Try writing something substantive that contributes to the discussion because "Uh, duh, you mean racism" says nothing.

1. People lie cheat and steal to get into this country. Faking a few documents in order to say your a professional when you're not is nothing for someone with nothing to lose. "Well Mr. Immigrant, your paperwork says you're a doctor...COME ON IN!"

2. Why the **** would I want to leave the greatest country in the World.

3. They call it "starting over" for a reason...YOU START OVER! If you have nothing to start with, you don't get to move into the penthouse on Day 1. BTW well educated skilled professional being dirt poor needing to come to Canada is a red flag right there. Why isn't this well educated skilled professional successful where they originated from? You would think a well educated skilled professional would have a job lined up before coming to Canada, like well educated skilled professional from Canada making the move to the USA. No job, no entry.

 

[Moreno636]

LSUC, CMA, etc.. I don't feel like doing your research, for you

Ok perfect...so get these organizations to form a standardized board that in conjunction with Education Canada to have standard that all schools have to meet. Have these schools submit their case as to why their school should be given accreditation and charge them for it. Now if your an immigrant professional from one of these schools you are on the same footing as everyone else when it comes to your education.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Ok perfect...so get these organizations to form a standardized board that in conjunction with Education Canada to have standard that all schools have to meet. Have these schools submit their case as to why their school should be given accreditation and charge them for it. Now if your an immigrant professional from one of these schools you are on the same footing as everyone else when it comes to your education.

The standards exist. They cannot be applied to schools, outside of Canada, due to the differences in curriculum. The individual professional oganizations can no more vet every school in the world, than can the Canadian educational institutions.

Though we try.

 

[rutakin]

A teenager who treated cardiac arrest patients while impersonated a physician's assistant in a busy emergency room has been arrested.

Matthew Scheidt performed CPR and chest compressions on unsuspecting patients after duping officials at Osceola Regional Medical Center, Florida, by claiming he had been on a university medical programme.

The 17-year-old managed to obtain hospital credentials as a physician's assistant before interviewing patients, looking at confidential medical records and performing physical examinations.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-doctors-assistant-weeks.html#ixzz1XTyGPB7D

 

[stormcat]

1. People lie cheat and steal to get into this country. Faking a few documents in order to say your a professional when you're not is nothing for someone with nothing to lose. "Well Mr. Immigrant, your paperwork says you're a doctor...COME ON IN!"

2. Why the **** would I want to leave the greatest country in the World.

3. They call it "starting over" for a reason...YOU START OVER! If you have nothing to start with, you don't get to move into the penthouse on Day 1. BTW well educated skilled professional being dirt poor needing to come to Canada is a red flag right there. Why isn't this well educated skilled professional successful where they originated from? You would think a well educated skilled professional would have a job lined up before coming to Canada, like well educated skilled professional from Canada making the move to the USA. No job, no entry.

1. You STILL haven't read what I wrote. Where did I talk about "documents" in my original post? Do you honestly think that immigration officials don't double and triple check applicant credentials and just hand them tenured track teaching positions and medical offices? If you do, then this isn't the "greatest country in the World" as you state in #2.

2. Greatest country in the world. More part time than full time jobs, severe cut-backs in benefits along with, lacking job security, increasing wait times for people visiting the hospital, educational standards that are going down the pot, antiquated employment ideologies and gendered pay inequity to match, etc., etc. Canada is not the "greatest" country in the world. I believe Canada ranks somewhere around 15th, actually.

3. Again, your comprehension seems to be lacking. Immigrants don't get a free ride. They must have money to get in here in the first place. They must be educated. You seem to think immigration just opens the border and lets the world's skeets in. The sad fact is that Canada wants the money of immigrants, but employers don't want to give a lot of people a chance. Same reason why universities love visa students. My tuition might be $1500/semester, but that student from China gets to pay $250,000/semester to learn the same crap.

 

[OpenGambit]

Yes but your degree is never put into question. Yes you may have to pass local standardized testing in whatever form to get familiar with local nuances and procedure. But, your knowledge base as that professional is never put into question.

I don't think you understand the extent of testing /courses required
My Canadian law degree is only recognized as a JD in 3 US states. Otherwise I bascially need to take the masters program in order to be eligible to take the bar.

Its a minimum 2 year and many many thousand dollar process.

Honestly, if it weren't for the accreditation process. I would move to the UK.

Its also 1 year of full time schooling + bar in Uk and Hong Kong, from what I understand.

And this is common law jurisdictions within the commonwealth. If I had a law degree from France? my god that would be a nightmare.

 

[Moreno636]

The standards exist. They cannot be applied to schools, outside of Canada, due to the differences in curriculum. The individual professional oganizations can no more vet every school in the world, than can the Canadian educational institutions.

Though we try.

Have them come to us, charge them for it, to offset the costs. Not every school will be able to apply...well then thems the breaks. We have to draw the line in some way or form. This will weed out the schools that we wouldnt want anyway.

 

[Moreno636]

I don't think you understand the extent of testing /courses required
My Canadian law degree is only recognized as a JD in 3 US states. Otherwise I bascially need to take the masters program in order to be eligible to take the bar.

Its a minimum 2 year and many many thousand dollar process.

Well thats just dumb...and a clear indication of abject close mindedness.

 

[OpenGambit]

1. People lie cheat and steal to get into this country. Faking a few documents in order to say your a professional when you're not is nothing for someone with nothing to lose. "Well Mr. Immigrant, your paperwork says you're a doctor...COME ON IN!"

2. Why the **** would I want to leave the greatest country in the World.

3. They call it "starting over" for a reason...YOU START OVER! If you have nothing to start with, you don't get to move into the penthouse on Day 1. BTW well educated skilled professional being dirt poor needing to come to Canada is a red flag right there. Why isn't this well educated skilled professional successful where they originated from? You would think a well educated skilled professional would have a job lined up before coming to Canada, like well educated skilled professional from Canada making the move to the USA. No job, no entry.

You do realize that Canada actively courts professionals from other countries to immigrate here...
These aren't just bums standing in a line in an embassy somewhere.

Canada says - WE NEED XXXXX COME HERE NOW... then when they get here its like... here drive a cab for a few years while we check out your credentials. The process is completely stupid.

 

[OpenGambit]

Well thats just dumb...and a clear indication of abject close mindedness.

haha I don't disagree. But my point was that its just as hard to move among the industrialized countries.

 

[invictus43]

Well thats just dumb...and a clear indication of abject close mindedness.

I dunno..I think law is one of the more difficult professions to transfer. The laws and even the basic precepts of law can be different depending what country you're in. I think the former/current Commonwealth countries are similar and probably there is more latitude with those countries. But from here to Syria? Man, that's a world apart. At least in engineering and medicine the concepts are basically the same. Engineering has some specific areas of uniqueness depending on the field..but with enough time, all engineers have the tools to learn the new things.

 

[Moreno636]

I dunno..I think law is one of the more difficult professions to transfer. The laws and even the basic precepts of law can be different depending what country you're in. I think the former/current Commonwealth countries are similar and probably there is more latitude with those countries. But from here to Syria? Man, that's a world apart. At least in engineering and medicine the concepts are basically the same. Engineering has some specific areas of uniqueness depending on the field..but with enough time, all engineers have the tools to learn the new things.

Fair point about the differences in law being to vast to bridge without a more thorough set of testing. But Medicine, Science, Math, Engineering, IT etc....these are for the most parts universal.