Gixxer6
Well-known member
Clearly you have never been to NYC. Even at 4am the street are packed with people.
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Yet another shooting in the USA - 2
- Thread starter TheNewDude
- Start date
Clearly you have never been to NYC. Even at 4am the street are packed with people.
Gixxer6
Well-known member
[video=youtube_share;NWvrYOn9NPE]http://youtu.be/NWvrYOn9NPE[/video]
For those who would have moved him to a "safer" area, or not had bystanders behind the shooter, what do you do when the guy pulls the gun first? How would you react, i feel that there isn't a person on this forum that would have reacted any differently. If you have a gun and someone else points a gun at you, your first reaction is to point yours back at him/her. The same happens when someone tries to hit or punch you, you defend yourself.
I'm sure you are all crack shots that have perfect aim even when guns are aimed and shot at you... please your all a bunch of armchair quarterbacks. Don't judge people's actions unless you have first hand experience. And let's not forget that it was some nut job disgruntled former employee that started all of this, not the police.
For those who would have moved him to a "safer" area, or not had bystanders behind the shooter, what do you do when the guy pulls the gun first? How would you react, i feel that there isn't a person on this forum that would have reacted any differently. If you have a gun and someone else points a gun at you, your first reaction is to point yours back at him/her. The same happens when someone tries to hit or punch you, you defend yourself.
I'm sure you are all crack shots that have perfect aim even when guns are aimed and shot at you... please your all a bunch of armchair quarterbacks. Don't judge people's actions unless you have first hand experience. And let's not forget that it was some nut job disgruntled former employee that started all of this, not the police.
Blah blah blahh
Those cops need to practice more with their guns. When your job is to serve and protect the innocent (unarmed) public, you better make training a priority! There is no complacency when it comes to carrying a gun. Making quick accurate shots should be muscle memory for cops. Period.
7' away and half your shots miss? Back to the range!!!!!
Those cops need to practice more with their guns. When your job is to serve and protect the innocent (unarmed) public, you better make training a priority! There is no complacency when it comes to carrying a gun. Making quick accurate shots should be muscle memory for cops. Period.
7' away and half your shots miss? Back to the range!!!!!
I didn't mean a fatal hit that would bleed out later, I meant a fatal where they are in fact dead but have yet to drop. The cops keep shooting until the body is down. Sometimes five shots as the target is collapsing.
Difference is if you are hit with two 10mm rounds in the chest it doesn't matter who you are or what you are on. You're going to be turned off like a light switch because your lungs and heart will be on whatever is behind you.....
If the cops could shoot accurate controlled shots in a panic situation it would be one thing, but they can't and they don't.
So, your solution is to make cops expert marksman that only hit center of mass in the circumstances you described which are all present when the shooting starts.
Mine is stop the threat by high penetration/expansion so they go down early. No need to put the entire magazine into whatever is in the general direction of fire.
Gixxer6
Well-known member
Not sure there is a range in Canada that bullets are coming at you while you shoot, also while at a range you are standing still in ideal conditions and have plenty of time to shoot... not typical in the real world situtation and definately not the case in this situation.
Training, training, training. Its all about repetitive drills until it becomes second nature. How do you think the real pros train?
Stop throwing excuses up for poorly trained cops. Its unaccepable.
Agree.
A range doesn't provide return fire but if the shooter is absolute ***** standing still, how good is he/she when it's a moving target?
Shooting is a skill fade ability. It takes practice to get good at it and more practice to maintain.
Every round should be accounted for when letting them go in a populated area.
Until the target is down, it COULD still be a threat, I don't care if it's a dead man walking and the only "lights out" hit is a central nervous system hit, anything else takes time (albeit perhaps a very small amount of time... but then how long does it take to pull a trigger).
As for high penetration / expansion, well expansion I agree with, high penetration I don't; sucks to take out two targets (one that's a bystander) with one round when that round over penetrates and exits.
As for average patrol cops needing more range time, no question I think they do but in many (most cities) they can't access a range whenever they want.
Don't blame the shooter, blame the gun.
When the NYPD switched from Smith & Wesson revolvers, which had about a 12 lb trigger pull, to Glock semiautomatics, which have a 5.5 lb trigger pull, the NYPD found that their officers were having a high incidence of negligent discharges due to the lower weight trigger pull. Instead of altering their training, as every other police department did, and teach the officers not to put their fingers on the trigger until they're prepared to fire, they decided to re-engineer the Glock trigger to add an 8 lb resistance spring to the trigger, effectively giving it a pull weight about the same as the old revolvers (~12 lbs).
Due to the design of the Glock's firing mechanism, using a spring-loaded striker instead of an external hammer, this didn't exactly result in a trigger that had the same feel and function of the old revolvers; it just made the trigger very cumbersome to use, especially for rapid follow-up shots. What ends up happening is the increased trigger pull weight causes the user to torque their grip on the firearm, resulting in the muzzle waving off the target for rapid follow-up shots.
It has been documented* that NYPD officers have some of the lowest accuracy scores, both in the controlled, low-stress environment of the qualification range, as well as in real-world officer-involved shootings. This includes an incident where officers fired a total of 73 rounds at a suspect, hitting him a total of two times. That sort of performance from a police force is unacceptable.
The NYPD are the only police department that use the modified heavy trigger in their Glock pistols. All other departments worldwide use the standard 5.5lb trigger.
To compare the performance of their officers to another large police force, the LAPD use standard Beretta 92F (US Army designation M9) 9mm pistols, which have triggers that operate in double-action (12 lbs) for the first shot, and single-action (5 lbs) for all follow-up shots. The LAPD officers have a 51% hit rate.*
The NYPD's modified Glocks operate in double-action for every shot with a 12 lb trigger pull, and their officers have a 15% hit rate.* *[Source: SPECIAL REPORT: FIREARMS, Aveni, Thomas; Law and Order, Vol. 51, No.8 August 2003]
A 15% hit rate is absolutely unacceptable, especially by officers that may have to use their firearms against armed suspects in a crowded city environment, as was the case in this incident. 16 shots were fired, and 9 bystanders were struck. It's unknown how many shots struck the suspect, or how many struck no-one at all.
Instead of training their officers to be safer users of firearms, the NYPD decided to modify their guns, which resulted in guns that are much less effective, and quite frankly, more dangerous to bystanders than the alternative.
BTW: The OPP tend to draw ammo for the range the week before their annual test to practice so bring that total up to a whopping 200 rounds a year....
When the NYPD switched from Smith & Wesson revolvers, which had about a 12 lb trigger pull, to Glock semiautomatics, which have a 5.5 lb trigger pull, the NYPD found that their officers were having a high incidence of negligent discharges due to the lower weight trigger pull. Instead of altering their training, as every other police department did, and teach the officers not to put their fingers on the trigger until they're prepared to fire, they decided to re-engineer the Glock trigger to add an 8 lb resistance spring to the trigger, effectively giving it a pull weight about the same as the old revolvers (~12 lbs).
Due to the design of the Glock's firing mechanism, using a spring-loaded striker instead of an external hammer, this didn't exactly result in a trigger that had the same feel and function of the old revolvers; it just made the trigger very cumbersome to use, especially for rapid follow-up shots. What ends up happening is the increased trigger pull weight causes the user to torque their grip on the firearm, resulting in the muzzle waving off the target for rapid follow-up shots.
It has been documented* that NYPD officers have some of the lowest accuracy scores, both in the controlled, low-stress environment of the qualification range, as well as in real-world officer-involved shootings. This includes an incident where officers fired a total of 73 rounds at a suspect, hitting him a total of two times. That sort of performance from a police force is unacceptable.
The NYPD are the only police department that use the modified heavy trigger in their Glock pistols. All other departments worldwide use the standard 5.5lb trigger.
To compare the performance of their officers to another large police force, the LAPD use standard Beretta 92F (US Army designation M9) 9mm pistols, which have triggers that operate in double-action (12 lbs) for the first shot, and single-action (5 lbs) for all follow-up shots. The LAPD officers have a 51% hit rate.*
The NYPD's modified Glocks operate in double-action for every shot with a 12 lb trigger pull, and their officers have a 15% hit rate.* *[Source: SPECIAL REPORT: FIREARMS, Aveni, Thomas; Law and Order, Vol. 51, No.8 August 2003]
A 15% hit rate is absolutely unacceptable, especially by officers that may have to use their firearms against armed suspects in a crowded city environment, as was the case in this incident. 16 shots were fired, and 9 bystanders were struck. It's unknown how many shots struck the suspect, or how many struck no-one at all.
Instead of training their officers to be safer users of firearms, the NYPD decided to modify their guns, which resulted in guns that are much less effective, and quite frankly, more dangerous to bystanders than the alternative.
BTW: The OPP tend to draw ammo for the range the week before their annual test to practice so bring that total up to a whopping 200 rounds a year....
Could be budget or allotment.
Ammo always gets the chop if you don't use it you lose it kinda mentality.
We usually go shoot everything we are entitled to at the end of the fiscal year in order to avoid a reduction in allotment.
It's also an issue of getting officers off the streets / duties to get range time during whatever range time is available.
In the world of accountabilty, WSIB, etc... you won't see ANY reloads at any police service. The army wouldn't even think of it.
They do need more shooting time though.
Assuming they are allowed to run anything other than issued ammo in their sidearms.
Even when I was at SOFCOM we could only use Gov issued 9mm in our Sigs.
Truth is (or appears anyway) they don't think it's important, don't have the time or figure they will go their entire career not having to fire a shot so why bother.
LOL - pathetic indeed. I go through more than 200 rounds each visit to the range.
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