vaccine poll

[Dimitri]

By ‘catching’ I mean being bed ridden by it. You still get it….just the effects are MUCH lower.

Yes, severe illness is reduced. As virtually all patients with severe COVID have one form of sepsis or another. Which is caused by your immune system over reacting to a new virus.

However, if you already got COVID, your likelihood of severe illness is about the same as getting vaccinated. T-cell memory prevents your immune system from over reacting even if your overall antibody levels are low.

Based on apparent reduction in spread in highly vaccinated countries, it is likely that vaccine is reducing the risk of "catching" covid as opposed to allowing you to catch it (and spread it) but you are asymptomatic.

Not really. Many countries, including Israel where the first such report came out, do not test asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic people who have been vaccinated. So while Pfizer acted monetarily that their vaccine is responsible, the Minister of Health in Israel clarified what was in, but ignored by the media, in the report.

So when 60%+ of your population is exempt to testing unless they land in a hospital bed. You don't really know how well it's transmitting.

What we do know, even here in Canada, fully vaccinated staff and patients at hospitals are getting COVID, still getting sick and even dying post being fully vaccinated. Most recently Toronto Western Hospital's outbreak including fully vaccinated nursing staff.

This vaccine isn't the silver bullet that the polio or MMR vaccines are. This is more of a therapeutic that primes your immune system preventing sepsis. Which is what we need, but playing it up by calling it a vaccine does a disservice to all the other vaccines and just gives anti-vaxxers more fuel.

 

[GreyGhost]

Yes, severe illness is reduced. As virtually all patients with severe COVID have one form of sepsis or another. Which is caused by your immune system over reacting to a new virus.

However, if you already got COVID, your likelihood of severe illness is about the same as getting vaccinated. T-cell memory prevents your immune system from over reacting even if your overall antibody levels are low.



Not really. Many countries, including Israel where the first such report came out, do not test asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic people who have been vaccinated. So while Pfizer acted monetarily that their vaccine is responsible, the Minister of Health in Israel clarified what was in, but ignored by the media, in the report.

So when 60%+ of your population is exempt to testing unless they land in a hospital bed. You don't really know how well it's transmitting.

What we do know, even here in Canada, fully vaccinated staff and patients at hospitals are getting COVID, still getting sick and even dying post being fully vaccinated. Most recently Toronto Western Hospital's outbreak including fully vaccinated nursing staff.

This vaccine isn't the silver bullet that the polio or MMR vaccines are. This is more of a therapeutic that primes your immune system preventing sepsis. Which is what we need, but playing it up by calling it a vaccine does a disservice to all the other vaccines and just gives anti-vaxxers more fuel.

All your arguments bash the vaccine for not being 100% effective. Nobody has ever argued it was 100% effective. To control the wildfire, even at 50% efficacy (against spread, full data still unknown), you get R below 1 and things die out over time.

You seem to have a lot of anger in you over the current approach, do you have a better plan?

 

[Dimitri]

All your arguments bash the vaccine for not being 100% effective.

I don't expect a therapeutic for a coronavirus to be 100%, hell, I'm fine with 0% if it eliminated hospitalization and deaths but came with a runny nose and a cough.

You know the old adage you can't cure the common cold? It comes from the ability of rhinoviruses and coronaviruses to rapidly mutate and prevent effective treatments. Public Health of most nations should have started there with their messaging. Instead of acting surprised every time a new variant appears.

 

[Brian P]

No one has ever seriously claimed that this virus wasn't going to mutate. Perhaps some media have been hyping up what might happen due to the latest mutations, but the possibility of mutations has always been acknowledged by the health authorities.

And ... so what? This wouldn't change what we all need to do ... get vaccinated, and stay away from indoor crowded conditions. I fully anticipate the possibility that we will need booster shots to address mutations, perhaps once a year for the next few.

 

[jc100]

Lol…no one is surprised at the variants, well, not the scientists anyway. The aim was always to lower the R value to keep this from being a prolonged pandemic and to keep hospitals free of seriously ill patients. That is starting to happen. The flu vaccines do the same every year too and without them the hospitals would be clogged with patients with severe issues. The more people get vaccinated the less the virus can take hold and the less it is likely to mutate to an extremely dangerous variant.

 

[Dimitri]

No one has ever seriously claimed that this virus wasn't going to mutate.

Effectively Public Health has been claiming thay by claiming "once we all get vaccinated it will be back to normal".

No, there was never going to be a return to normal.

 

[mimico_polak]

There will be a new normal….but it will never go back to what it was.

Shot #2 administered. Let’s see how bad this side effect will be compared to #1.

 

[bakaboy]

2nd shot done
So I shouldn't be planning to climb water tanks tomorrow?

 

[mimico_polak]

2nd shot done
So I shouldn't be planning to climb water tanks tomorrow?

After shot #1 I immediately started feeling it. Had my shot over 2hrs ago and nothing.

 

[regder]

FWIW, I felt perfectly fine outside of a sore shoulder after shot 2. Shot 1 felt like I had the onset of a cold for half a day.

 

[Brian P]

Effectively Public Health has been claiming thay by claiming "once we all get vaccinated it will be back to normal".

No, there was never going to be a return to normal.

Can you find an example of a Canadian (or European) public health agency ever saying that in an official capacity any time in the last year?

Phrases such as "the new normal" come about as close as I recall. Everyone with any connection to reality is foreseeing a need for periodic booster shots, and showing proof of vaccination and/or proof of negative tests to do certain activities (international travel being the big one), and no one is even discussing how we are going to see full indoor hockey stadiums or basketball stadiums except via proof of vaccination. There will be a "new normal" ... for the people who have been vaccinated ... but it will be a "new normal" of showing proof of vaccination and occasionally being tested in order to do certain things. The vaccine-refusers may still be able to do some of those things in conjunction with very frequent testing and showing documentation, but international travel in particular is going to be more difficult for those hold-outs.

Some factions in the USA may be acting like everything is back to normal (some factions have seemingly acted like there was never a pandemic). The rest of us are seeing the USA on a perilous fine line of barely-adequate vaccine and previous-infection coverage, and with the concept of covid clearance documentation being politically unpalatable.

 

[mimico_polak]

I am curious how travelling will change moving forward. I know people buying tickets to Poland and just stating 'I'll deal with whatever I have to, I'm not getting vaccinated' and others saying 'eff that...I'm not staying at some hotel. Let em fine me, I'll never have to pay the fine anyway'.

Curious how that rolls out. Personally I don't care...shot #2 is done, wife should be in a few weeks.

 

[Brian P]

The EU is just now in the process of opening its borders to citizens of other countries. It isn't 100% clear yet how international covid clearance is going to work, but it's known that there's going to be "something" - some sort of international covid clearance documentation. It appears (for now) that the EU's digital covid certificates are for EU citizens only.

For now ... Which European countries accept vaccinated travelers from the US?

The EU's position is that vaccination status can't be used as a condition of travel ... but life for those unvaccinated is going to be a whole lot more difficult (more testing) and expensive (more tests that are on their nickel, and more quarantines).

I know of one chap who is also from Poland and frequently travels there, who originally wasn't planning to get vaccinated (not a strong antivaxxer, just didn't feel he was at risk so couldn't be bothered), and has now had his first shot because he can see where all this is going.

 

[mimico_polak]

I know of one chap who is also from Poland and frequently travels there, who originally wasn't planning to get vaccinated (not a strong antivaxxer, just didn't feel he was at risk so couldn't be bothered), and has now had his first shot because he can see where all this is going.

This is descriptive on some of my Polish friends as well. Not anti-vax...just not comfortable due to the sped up timelines for approval of the vaccines, which I can see their point.

However, the FB mommies are 100% against it because reasons. So they're the ones driving their husbands not to get it. I forgot that I have my Polish/EUR passport. Wonder if I can add that page/vax confirmation to it.

 

[GreyGhost]

eff that...I'm not staying at some hotel. Let em fine me, I'll never have to pay the fine anyway'.

I would be shocked if that isn't exactly how it will play out with provincial covid tickets and federal quarantine tickets for the overwhelming majority. Maybe, if you are one of the few memorable aholes, gov't will decide to enforce your ticket but I even doubt those as the courts should be enforcing and they have never met the aholes.

 

[PrivatePilot]

rest of us are seeing the USA on a perilous fine line of barely-adequate vaccine and previous-infection coverage, and with the concept of covid clearance documentation being politically unpalatable.

You should see the shenanigans going on between Florida and the cruise lines right now.

Cruise lines pretty much all agreed "Mandatory vaccinations or you don't cruise".

Floriduh decided that it was against the law to demand such. Because Floriduh.

So now cruise lines relented but are making all sorts of mandatory testing and such for the non vaxxed. But the biggest load of horsepuckey they're going to do is have separate rules for onboard masking, restrictions, and different rules for the unvaccinated, which is utter and complete nonsense since it's unenforceable. Hell, anyone who's ever been on a cruise ship knows you can't get 50% of the population of the ship to adhere to the stupid simple rules like "wash your hands after you wipe your ass" and "don't reserve deckchairs for endless hours while you're at the other end of the ship nowhere near said deck chairs".

But they think they're going to put coloured bands on peoples arms (vaxxed and not vaxxed) and that'll instantly solve the issue at hand. Everyone will follow the rules I'm sure. 100%, everyone non vaxxed will wear their masks 100% of the time they're supposed to be, which is basically all the time in any public area except when eating. Yeah, sure.

This is going to be sadly ironic to watch the outcome. Cruise lines will have nobody but themselves to blame really - they should have told Floriday to **** off and just moved all the ships to other ports. Watch how fast they caved when they saw those billions of dollars never coming back.

I know people buying tickets to Poland and just stating 'I'll deal with whatever I have to, I'm not getting vaccinated' and others saying 'eff that...I'm not staying at some hotel. Let em fine me,

Well, getting arrested, put on the next plane back, and banned from the country (assuming non citizen) would sure get the word out fast that such BS isn't going to be allowed. Wonder if any countries will have the balls to do that sort of thing. Being lackadaisical about it sure seems to be a recipe for problems on the flipside however once word gets out that the rules are just "suggestions".

The EU's position is that vaccination status can't be used as a condition of travel ... but life for those unvaccinated is going to be a whole lot more difficult (more testing) and expensive (more tests that are on their nickel, and more quarantines).

Carrot or stick. Like I've been harping on about like a broken record now for months. It'll solve any issues.

 

[mimico_polak]

Florida will not lose the cruise ships because money. Now the cruisers will say ‘see we tried’ and people will flock to it anyway.

The ones with vaccines will feel safe because they have the jab. And the ones without vaccines will feel safe because …. Just because.

FL doesn’t have the stones to remove that cash cow.

As for people forgoing they hotels…not much incentive as they can’t put them back on the plane. They met the requirements of Canada (get test before boarding) so the airline obligation is met. Who’s going to pay for the trip back?

 

[GreyGhost]

As for people forgoing they hotels…not much incentive as they can’t put them back on the plane. They met the requirements of Canada (get test before boarding) so the airline obligation is met. Who’s going to pay for the trip back?

That's where JT's team really screwed up. The quarantine arrangements should have been required to clear customs. If you don't have a confirmation number from a hotel, stay on the international side of the airport until you make the arrangements. Far fewer people would have said F you and walked away if they had already paid for the hotel.

 

[Brian P]

The cruise ship situation sounds like a ticking time bomb. But even at that ... No matter what Floriduh says, if that ship is going to any international destinations, the passengers will have to fulfill the requirements of those destinations if they want to leave the ship at those destinations. I've never been on a cruise ship - not my thing. I presume that someone going onshore still has to go through passport control at the port. "Documentation, please"

 

[PrivatePilot]

I have to disagree on the cruise ship thing – when you look at the dynamics of the vaccinated versus not vaccinated portion of the USA population it falls not surprisingly, and sadly, along party, religious, income, and ideological lines

Then take a look at who is the most affluent frequent travellers - that group is amongst the highest vaccinated.

The least vaccinated? The poorly educated, under employed, and (yes, with exceptions, admittedly) "less affluent".

Covid-19 vaccination rates follow the money in states with the biggest wealth gaps, analysis shows

Connecticut has the most glaring disparity in vaccination rates between its richest and poorest communities — a difference of 65% — according to a STAT analysis of vaccine data in 10 states with the biggest wealth gaps.

www.statnews.com

So, the cruise ships have a dilemma on their hands which is now working through their systems. They're attracting the less affluent portion of the USA population with this decision. That's a smaller market with less profit potential to begin with. And the affluent pro vaccination segment of the population are frantically rescheduling or cancelling their cruises out of FL and moving them to other ports where the 98% vaccination rule is being enforced, or are just cancelling outright. Friends of ours did exactly that and pushed their cruise out to the next one we have booked - fall 2022. And if Covid is still a thing and they haven't had a change of heart on the whole vaccine requirement thing, I'll be cancelling that one too. No way in hell knowing what I know about cruise ships (having 15 or 20 cruises under our belt now) will I set foot on one where the 98% rule doesn't apply.

So in the end, FL stands to lose no matter what. Not only are they attracting less wealth, they're sending potential plague ships out of their state in the name of stupid. The first time one of these ships ends up getting overrun with Covid cases (it's not like it, uh, hasn't happened before) it's gonna be a disaster - no port is going to want that ship (well, except Floriduh I guess?) so it'll be a cruise to nowhere at best, and potentially shortened if it happens early in the cruise.

Then what....all these people get off the ship and spread it everywhere.

It's gonna be a gong show.

No matter what Floriduh says, if that ship is going to any international destinations, the passengers will have to fulfill the requirements of those destinations if they want to leave the ship at those destinations.

It's a bit of a mess of different rules there as well actually.

Caribbean travel: Covid entry rules, island by island

We explain the entry requirements in place for U.S. visitors in each Caribbean country. Updated March 28.

www.travelweekly.com

Can't wait to see what happens when a plague ship drags Covid to one of these islands.

Unfortunately the Caribbean is stuck between a rock and a hard place as so much of their economy is tourism related now, but it seems to me many of them are doing a Florida and just throwing caution to the wind in the name of money.