The Childfree Movement

[Red_Liner740]

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I've heard of these things about Mother Theresa as well, and i may not believe it all, but it can be plausible....why do we write things off as lies as soon as it goes against what the mass media says is true.

Religious fanatics have caused a lot of pain and suffering because they believed that "God" will provide the cure and that no medical help is needed. How much unnecessary suffering has that caused? Mother Theresa's most vocal statement has always been "NO ABORTION, NO CONTRACEPTIVES", as has the churches....anybody want to warrant a guess of India's population change if she had adopted a different outlook?

 

[jc100]

Wow...the woman dedicated her life helping people you and I wouldn't stop to spit on, and this is how she was repaid? What I find hilarious, are these "accusations" came out after her death. If this was all true someone should of had the guts and evidence to take her on alive, instead of making a buck on destroying her reputation after she died.

Hitchens did take her on when she was alive. Although there's an obvious case for bias I've found Hitchen's books to be very well written and expertly researched, I can't say the same thing about religious texts. Are you seriously questioning the whole abortion/contraception thing by the way? She was a stallwart of the catholic church, she preached on the evils of abortion and contraception all the time. The irony of what she was trying to do coupled with that standpoint would be priceless if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[killerkeith]

I've heard of these things about Mother Theresa as well, and i may not believe it all, but it can be plausible....why do we write things off as lies as soon as it goes against what the mass media says is true.

Religious fanatics have caused a lot of pain and suffering because they believed that "God" will provide the cure and that no medical help is needed. How much unnecessary suffering has that caused? Mother Theresa's most vocal statement has always been "NO ABORTION, NO CONTRACEPTIVES", as has the churches....anybody want to warrant a guess of India's population change if she had adopted a different outlook?

That's totally laughable...One Christian nun is responsible for the birth of 1 billion Hindus.

You stated before your dislike of religious people, so ya...it's easy for you to believe Christian Nuns are out to abuse and rape little children. The mass media have done a great job of destroying their reputation too.

 

[jc100]

I respectfully disagree with your point. Human beings are not long past biological imperatives. The imperative exists and will continue to exist regardless of whether we follow it or not. What you are insinuating is that we have evolved past the point of our calling to procreate and that is totally ridiculous. My point is very much contrary to what you are saying because I believe that this calling to procreate triggers a lot of behavioural tendencies that you seem to think are 'other' imperatives when really they are not. Procreation is part of the cycle of life and will always be.

This does not apply 100% of the time, there are always outliers and in this case a small percentage of the global population that will not procreate - whether it is by choice or because they cannot.

You can credit intelligence and human sophistication for this "Childree Movement" but it would be very easy to argue that this is just darwinism at work. Like I've already posted, I support personal choice 100% to do whatever you want but to ignore human history, our biology, the importance of reproduction and cycle of life is just ridiculous.

One of the facts of evolution applied to humans is that self determination has given us the option of deciding whether or not to procreate and to suppress that urge at times. In the same way we have suppressed other primeval urges.

If you're saying it's un-natural to not have children then you also should embrace the natural urge for self survival that would necessitate clearing space for your "tribe" in an overpopulated area. Thankfully, our self determination, by and large, tells us that this is wrong.

 

[jc100]

That's totally laughable...One Christian nun is responsible for the birth of 1 billion Hindus.

You stated before your dislike of religious people, so ya...it's easy for you to believe Christian Nuns are out to abuse and rape little children. The mass media have done a great job of destroying their reputation too.

Christian missionaries don't have a good track record of performing altruistic acts. Often the desire is to "convert the heathens". You could ask a mayan about their history....if you can find one.

I have no problem with people helping others if the real motivation is human kindness. I'm less inclined to be accepting of a pious idiot who believes their imaginary friend is more powerful and needs to be pushed into the lives of the "unenlightened" by doing work that the most impoverished in this world come to rely on and feel the need to repay back by "believing".

 

[killerkeith]

Hitchens did take her on when she was alive. Although there's an obvious case for bias I've found Hitchen's books to be very well written and expertly researched, I can't say the same thing about religious texts. Are you seriously questioning the whole abortion/contraception thing by the way? She was a stallwart of the catholic church, she preached on the evils of abortion and contraception all the time. The irony of what she was trying to do coupled with that standpoint would be priceless if it wasn't so tragic.

Link me a national media outlet who also covered the story.

 

[Red_Liner740]

abuse? rape? where the hell did i say that? You drinking some funny **** if thats what you're pulling out of my post....and to make the jump that i think one nun caused 1 billion birth is also stupid on your part. You missed the part where i said thats the churches stand?

Point is, you cant talk about the virtues of Mother Theresa anymore than others can bash her, because you werent there, you didnt witness it yourself.

That's totally laughable...One Christian nun is responsible for the birth of 1 billion Hindus.

You stated before your dislike of religious people, so ya...it's easy for you to believe Christian Nuns are out to abuse and rape little children. The mass media have done a great job of destroying their reputation too.

 

[awyala]

Consider the "pay it forward" notion here. You were once a child, given life (intentionally or not, it wasn't your will), and with that all the benefits you enjoy...the sheer ability to appreciate a fine leased luxury car...your senses and conciousness has been given to you. As has all the food to have sustained you over the years, as has the shelter, protection, love, encouragement, education and so on.

Your very existence up to the age of say 15 is entirely a debt you owe to someone, some institution (government health care, social services, education, etc). Without any of that you wouln't have the basis to appreciate a single wonderful good thing / toy in this world. Your parents bought you toys, yet now you cannot share...interesting.

The debt you owe your parents alone can never be repaid. You will never spend on them, or wipe their *** as much as they have done for you.

The notion is the debt is paid forward, and experiences afforded to new souls / minds / what have you. Hopefully these experiences are worthy of transmission.

Your civic duty is to at least have 2 children to maintain population and culture. If this is not done, you will have an immigrant demographic shift, as (specifically) this country exploits immigrant labour to keep the naturalized population working in the service sector and at a higher living scale.

Once immigrant influx / births exceeds domestic growth rates you will have a cultural shift. You wont care because your lease will be over and you will be in an old age home having your RRSP or savings bled dry by an inflated cost of living index. Or you may even opt for an early death when life without your toys becomes unbearable. You wont have anyone repaying the reciprical debt of love and gratitude to you in your old age, because....no one wants to share their toys. There will be no children of yours to share their dinners, grand children, homes, cars, picnics, death beds with.

Long term and indirect reciprocity is the issue here. Taxes is an indirect long term reciprical notion as well...pay into the pool (pay it forward) because one day you may need to call on a huge favour. Hell even the private sector espouses it (with a proffit mark-up of course): insurance. That leased luxury vehicle has mandatory insurance requirements....even if you never get into an accident, you have to pay into the social welfare pool, otherwise the whole system breaks down. So taxes are madatory, insurance is mandatory, licencing is mandatory (to grant you the provelege to drive)....there is a whole system in place, that existed prior to you, that you simply play your required part in, to be able to enjoy certain aspects of life.

Having children is a biological and societal tax...it is just not mandatory. I am not saying have 10 children divide up the "American (dream) pie" so much so that no one gets a good sized chunk, but if you don't have 2 children, that pie will be gobbled up by another (passively) invading culture (if you're lucky). But as I say, you'll be long gone...

Come to think of it, why do you even pay tax or insurance? How can they force you to do that? Shouldn't one be free to not pay? Ah yes you can opt out, but then again you opt out of civilization also, and you opt out of the rewards and benefits of the system.

 

[killerkeith]

Christian missionaries don't have a good track record of performing altruistic acts. Often the desire is to "convert the heathens". You could ask a mayan about their history....if you can find one.

I have no problem with people helping others if the real motivation is human kindness. I'm less inclined to be accepting of a pious idiot who believes their imaginary friend is more powerful and needs to be pushed into the lives of the "unenlightened" by doing work that the most impoverished in this world come to rely on and feel the need to repay back by "believing".

Do you judge every group of persons by actions their ancestors? Do you still believe every american is an Indian killing, n*gger hating slave owner? Is every Australian a raving criminal?

I can't debate someone with a hate as big as yours. Just admit a priest raped you and be done with it.

 

[jc100]

Link me a national media outlet who also covered the story.

The book came out in 1995, Theresa died in 1997, Hitchens was a critic of Theresa throughout his career. Google Theresa (or Teresa) and Criticism and you'll find plenty to read from the more hysterical end of the spectrum to the more sane as in most controversial subjects. I tend to think that the financial evidence of some of the claims is incontroversial and shows just where motivation lies. Building convents instead of hospitals if your aim is to help the weak, diseased and poor is a strange choice for instance.

 

[jc100]

Do you judge every group of persons by actions their ancestors? Do you still believe every american is an Indian killing, n*gger hating slave owner? Is every Australian a raving criminal?

I can't debate someone with a hate as big as yours. Just admit a priest raped you and be done with it.

No of course not, that would be a mistake to judge the actions of many by the actions of one. However, it's not "one" we're talking about, there's a history and long track record here.

FYI..no priest raped me, I decided a long long time ago that there were better things to life than to sit and listen to fairy stories from a man in a dress on a sunday.

 

[jc100]

Consider the "pay it forward" notion here. You were once a child, given life (intentionally or not, it wasn't your will), and with that all the benefits you enjoy...the sheer ability to appreciate a fine leased luxury car...your senses and conciousness has been given to you. As has all the food to have sustained you over the years, as has the shelter, protection, love, encouragement, education and so on.

Your very existence up to the age of say 15 is entirely a debt you owe to someone, some institution (government health care, social services, education, etc). Without any of that you wouln't have the basis to appreciate a single wonderful good thing / toy in this world. Your parents bought you toys, yet now you cannot share...interesting.

The debt you owe your parents alone can never be repaid. You will never spend on them, or wipe their *** as much as they have done for you.

The notion is the debt is paid forward, and experiences afforded to new souls / minds / what have you. Hopefully these experiences are worthy of transmission.

Your civic duty is to at least have 2 children to maintain population and culture. If this is not done, you will have an immigrant demographic shift, as (specifically) this country exploits immigrant labour to keep the naturalized population working in the service sector and at a higher living scale.

Once immigrant influx / births exceeds domestic growth rates you will have a cultural shift. You wont care because your lease will be over and you will be in an old age home having your RRSP or savings bled dry by an inflated cost of living index. Or you may even opt for an early death when life without your toys becomes unbearable. You wont have anyone repaying the reciprical debt of love and gratitude to you in your old age, because....no one wants to share their toys. There will be no children of yours to share their dinners, grand children, homes, cars, picnics, death beds with.

Long term and indirect reciprocity is the issue here. Taxes is an indirect long term reciprical notion as well...pay into the pool (pay it forward) because one day you may need to call on a huge favour. Hell even the private sector espouses it (with a proffit mark-up of course): insurance. That leased luxury vehicle has mandatory insurance requirements....even if you never get into an accident, you have to pay into the social welfare pool, otherwise the whole system breaks down. So taxes are madatory, insurance is mandatory, licencing is mandatory (to grant you the provelege to drive)....there is a whole system in place, that existed prior to you, that you simply play your required part in, to be able to enjoy certain aspects of life.

Having children is a biological and societal tax...it is just not mandatory. I am not saying have 10 children divide up the "American (dream) pie" so much so that no one gets a good sized chunk, but if you don't have 2 children, that pie will be gobbled up by another (passively) invading culture (if you're lucky). But as I say, you'll be long gone...

Come to think of it, why do you even pay tax or insurance? How can they force you to do that? Shouldn't one be free to not pay? Ah yes you can opt out, but then again you opt out of civilization also, and you opt out of the rewards and benefits of the system.

If we're talking civic duty then you might want to think about being a world citizen with declining resources including fuel and food. What would be the duty there?

 

[killerkeith]

abuse? rape? where the hell did i say that? You drinking some funny **** if thats what you're pulling out of my post....and to make the jump that i think one nun caused 1 billion birth is also stupid on your part. You missed the part where i said thats the churches stand?

Point is, you cant talk about the virtues of Mother Theresa anymore than others can bash her, because you werent there, you didnt witness it yourself.

Christianity is 2% of the population of India, but thanks for thinking they have that much power and influence in a country the size of India. My point is you already have a hate on for Christians. It's easy for you to believe Mother Theresa is the daughter of satan.

You point about virtues is also wrong. If we can't talk about the virtues of a Nobel Peace prize winner then your mind is more corrupt than previously thought.

 

[awyala]

No of course not, that would be a mistake to judge the actions of many by the actions of one. However, it's not "one" we're talking about, there's a history and long track record here.

FYI..no priest raped me, I decided a long long time ago that there were better things to life than to sit and listen to fairy stories from a man in a dress on a sunday.

Gotta agree. We stand on the shoulders of others. Had America not been settled, "cultivated" and risen the way it had we would be radically different people now, perhaps not even exist. Even immigrants would not have come here in the fashion they have. Economic migrants are not free of guilt, they just deny culpability or fain ignorance, and have a single minded goal...more money. Economic immigrants, seeking a better lifestyle largely check their morality at the port. You think the Irish, Italians, Ukrainians or Chinese wave of immigrants gave a toss about Blacks and Natives? They came for money, and in doing so diluted the culpability of the founders. Though our modern guilt is diluted it is not absolved, don't kid yourself. And don't kid yourself into think further injustices weren't perpetrated to maintain this empire.

You are not free of either your history or the history you choose to stand on to rise above others.

 

[LePhillou]

huh? i just got lost on this thread now, are we still talking about the childfree movement?

 

[killerkeith]

No of course not, that would be a mistake to judge the actions of many by the actions of one. However, it's not "one" we're talking about, there's a history and long track record here.

FYI..no priest raped me, I decided a long long time ago that there were better things to life than to sit and listen to fairy stories from a man in a dress on a sunday.

Again...you have a clear hate on for Christians...You'll believe any negative garbage. Show me the story CBS, NBC, ABC, BBC or even the religious hating CBC ran about about Mother Theresa being proven a fraud.

 

[RockerGuy]

Wanting a kid so someone will look after you and/or keep you company when you are old is selfish, 100%. You can not say "it is a fair trade" An unselfish act is one where you knowingly do something where you will receive no benefit, simple. Having a kid because you want to make a mini you, or continue your genes as it were, or to raise a person who shares your values and interest perhaps, is an act of vanity. Neither of these things are wrong or bad. It is normal human nature and we all are self serving and vain at times. It could be argued that a small dose of each is part of our survival. The good news is that when you have a kid, it is not all sunshine and roses and they generally force you to live a selfless life to a large degree. So when parents go on and on about how can you non parents be so selfish and not share your lives, it is because they in fact are very likely living a selfless existence and the insurmountable love they feel for these little beings that they brought into the world makes them know it is completely worth while.
I think that the people who know how hard and how draining being a parent is before they decide to get pregnant are in fact having kids for unselfish reasons. I am not one of those. I do not see how it is possible to know how hard being a parent is unless you experience it first hand. But what do I know? A lot of people are far more realistic than me.

Not as selfish as someone who would chase some 4x4'ers because their kids want to play in the field :dontknow:

 

[jc100]

huh? i just got lost on this thread now, are we still talking about the childfree movement?

Kinda off roaded into morality/obligations/human nature and religion. All sort of linked though...healthy discussion and debate. It's all good.....except if you're an atheist of course then you're going to hell (which doesn't exist).

 

[awyala]

If we're talking civic duty then you might want to think about being a world citizen with declining resources including fuel and food. What would be the duty there?

I don't dissagree with you. Civic duty is a moral (read long term selfish - I am tapping into Ayn Rand here) act. It is very complex. 2 children and a reduced life standard may be the civic thing to do....or maybe 1.5, and increased immigration, and reduced lifestyle. But in all cases....leased luxury car vs a child seems less "logically selfish" and more plain old selfish then other options.

That being said, a small anti-child movement, or select individuals who opt out of children wont rock the system too badly. Every system has its exploiters and mooches, and a good system can handle some expoitation. The problem is when the movement gains too much momentum as is the case with many Anglo-European countries at the moment. It breeds xenophobia, racism, wars, social unrest and disharmony more rapidly than expected.

North America is built on a dream. I say dream rather than reality because it is this hope that keeps people working hard and being productive, rather than actuall realized rewards from the system. When this dream breaks down, productivity is crippled and the source of power, the engine of the empire collapses with it. North America needs luxury cars putting around rubbing it in everyone's faces to motivated the poor, blue collar and immigrant masses. There is certainly a place for no-children-luxury-car-households, but when everyone finds the easy way out, the culture and system will collapse.

It is better to have a luxury car and pretend you have the nuclear family then openly admit you had to sacrifice the family to get the luxury car. This admission is the beginning of the breakdown of the American, and by extension Canadian, societal engine.

 

[toshison]

One of the facts of evolution applied to humans is that self determination has given us the option of deciding whether or not to procreate and to suppress that urge at times. In the same way we have suppressed other primeval urges.

If you're saying it's un-natural to not have children then you also should embrace the natural urge for self survival that would necessitate clearing space for your "tribe" in an overpopulated area. Thankfully, our self determination, by and large, tells us that this is wrong.

To clarify, no that is not what I am saying at all. IMO there is nothing un-natural about the outliers/small percentage of population that cannot or decide to not have children. They are as much a part of nature as everybody else. Just as there is northing un-natural about an animal that does not successfully mate in the animal kingdom and just dies off. It happens. What Im saying is that the imperative to procreate is there and sure, you can suppress it in many way but it does not mean that it is not there. And, I am actually totally fine with people not having children, we all know there are people out there that should definitely not be parents.

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