Provincial politics

In all fairness though, they have a new leader. Sure, Wynn signed off on the gas plant move as a member of McGuinty's cabinet, but as a cabinet member they have the choice of going along with the leader (McGuinty) or being kicked out of cabinet. Wynn claims to be more transparent. (I know that a politician's claim, along with $2 will buy you a cup of coffee.)

Hudak has done a particularly good job of tying that can to Wynne's tail, though he went too far by (in my opinion) going to the point of libel and slander.

In my inexpert opinion this election will be decided by the people who would vote for a particular party, but are made apathetic enough to stay home on election day by that party's behaviour. The party that behaves the most stupidly loses.
 
dude said not to share it.. mmmmkay, weird
 
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the liberals have 2
the conservatives have 2 or 0 (pharmacists shoppersdrugmart maybe? otherwise 0 if they work in a hospital)
NDP 12 or 3 (9 "trade unionists" could be employee's of government branches)
green 13 ( with 9 students)

In the white region it says:

NDP: 4 (minister, singer-songwriter, actor, truck driver)
Green: 4 (electroplater, ad copywriter, graphic designer, RMT)
Liberals: 2 (farmers)
PC: 5 (3 journalists, 2 pharmacists)

Those are outliers though. The ones I find fascinating is the fact that the lawyers are only in Lib and PC and the real estate agents are only in PC. Teachers are present in 3 of the 4 but -not- in the PC.
 
the liberals have 2
the conservatives have 2 or 0 (pharmacists shoppersdrugmart maybe? otherwise 0 if they work in a hospital)
NDP 12 or 3 (9 "trade unionists" could be employee's of government branches)
green 13 ( with 9 students)

naah .. I am talking to people who are not students, nor part of any union or government organization, essentially private sector employee with no hands in union .... not sure what the numbers are, but surely that must be the biggest piece of the pie, no ... or am delusional? Maybe most private sector employees are unionized in this lovely world?
 
All other BS aside, I really have a tough time figuring out how people can stand to vote Liberal again after all the scandals. Ornge, eHealth, gas plants, Squinty saying he won't raise taxes and doing the exact opposite, HST, etc. Seriously, this stuff just happened for crying out loud. It wasn't 10 or 20 or 40 years ago, its the current government. Do people just not know? I gotta start talking to my neighbours with red signs on their lawns... seriously wtf is going on here?

A message needs to be sent damnit. It's the only way to hold government accountable for their mistakes - don't re-elect them!!!

I thought this was discussed to death ... I think you are doing the right thing by talking to your red sign neighbors, but in all fairness what will you be telling them? If you are planning to say TH is a better choice, they will probably run you out of their front yard ... seriously, it's not about how bad the LIB's were .... but rather how bad is everyone out there and the lack of quality alternative.

Let me ask you this .... if Ornge, eHealth, gas plant didn't happen what would the alternative be and what would you advise your friends to vote for? PC would not have a plan, because all they propose is cuts and point to a gas plant. The reason I am asking is because you know there will be Ornge or eHealth whether LIB's are back or PC takes over ... there always is, every government has one or two financial scandals. So look past those scandals ... and that's what ordinary people (the ones with signs in their lawn) do ... with PC they see a one big nothing and whole lot uncertainty.
 
I thought this was discussed to death ... I think you are doing the right thing by talking to your red sign neighbors, but in all fairness what will you be telling them? If you are planning to say TH is a better choice, they will probably run you out of their front yard ... seriously, it's not about how bad the LIB's were .... but rather how bad is everyone out there and the lack of quality alternative.

Let me ask you this .... if Ornge, eHealth, gas plant didn't happen what would the alternative be and what would you advise your friends to vote for? PC would not have a plan, because all they propose is cuts and point to a gas plant. The reason I am asking is because you know there will be Ornge or eHealth whether LIB's are back or PC takes over ... there always is, every government has one or two financial scandals. So look past those scandals ... and that's what ordinary people (the ones with signs in their lawn) do ... with PC they see a one big nothing and whole lot uncertainty.

I'll tell em to vote for anyone BUT the Liberals, or to decline their ballot.

Your question doesn't concern me as Im thinking about the reality of what has actually happened, not what could've or should've or would've happened if circumstances were different. My point, and the reason I desperately don't wanna see the Liberals win, is that we need to start holding parties accountable for their actions. You say that other scandals would happen under other governments- well, when they do, we vote those guys out also.

Send a message. Large screw-ups with taxpayer dollars will cost your party an election.
 
" You say that other scandals would happen under other governments- well, when they do, we vote those guys out also."

I have to agree with this.
 
My point, and the reason I desperately don't wanna see the Liberals win, is that we need to start holding parties accountable for their actions. You say that other scandals would happen under other governments- well, when they do, we vote those guys out also.

Send a message. Large screw-ups with taxpayer dollars will cost your party an election.

I am not disagreeing with you as far as holding parties or their leaders accountable for their actions, on contrary. But I am also refusing to vote only for someone, I disagree on many points, only because the other party sucked a lied big time. That's just not going to work.
 
So you're gonna reelect the guys who squandered away several billion dollars of your money?

Decline your ballot.
 
Declining is useless. Choose one or why bother going to the polling station?

Because sitting at home on election day is what's useless. You are provided with a manner of displaying your displeasure with all candidates provided. Why not use it? That, or becoming active in a political party, are the only two real ways of influencing political discourse.
 
Declining is useless. Choose one or why bother going to the polling station?

A 'declined ballot' (one left entirely blank, not to be confused with a 'spoiled ballot') is still counted in the results, whereas sitting on your couch all day isn't counted for anything other than laziness or ignorance.
 
All other BS aside, I really have a tough time figuring out how people can stand to vote Liberal again after all the scandals. Ornge, eHealth, gas plants, Squinty saying he won't raise taxes and doing the exact opposite, HST, etc. Seriously, this stuff just happened for crying out loud. It wasn't 10 or 20 or 40 years ago, its the current government. Do people just not know? I gotta start talking to my neighbours with red signs on their lawns... seriously wtf is going on here?

A message needs to be sent damnit. It's the only way to hold government accountable for their mistakes - don't re-elect them!!!
I won't be voting Liberal, but I think I have the answer to this question.

From observing everyone's comments and their allegiances, it seems to me that people vote almost entirely based on ideology, rather than platforms or track records. I see it in others and I recognize it in myself. And it's more about voting AGAINST the "wrong" ideology than voting FOR one.

For me, I can't bring myself to vote NDP or PC because I don't believe their ideological perspective is correct. For example, I can't trust the NDP to reign in the spending. From the NDPers I know, they fit the stereotype of rose-coloured glasses, hippes, do-gooders, bleeding hearts, who believe there isn't a problem in the world that the government can't fix. For them, it's all about binding together as a big happy family and everything will work out.

IMO the Conservatives are the exact opposite. It's about individualism, government is the problem, it's always corrupt and wasteful, there is nothing it can do right. Life is supposed to be a struggle against personal demons and we should all only act in our own personal best interests. Hudak in particular is strongly ideological in this respect. He has the simple but strongly held faith that by stepping out of the way, things will generally improve. For example less taxes = more jobs. It's true on a theoretical level but society is too complex to follow the theory precisely. Besides, if things were that simple then there should be NO taxes (some people will actually agree!)

I believe the truth lies in the middle, and we have to take a more pragmatic approach to government that is more often represented by the Liberals. The problem is that the pragmatic thing for a political party to do is to lie, and cheat and steal (or buy) votes to get elected. So if they say they won't raise taxes and do it anyways, I understand - but I only support it to a certain degree. I suspect most Liberal supporters didn't particularly care about that claim anyways, but it got them a few votes from the right from those who are ambivalent between PCs and Libs. I could live with that untruth because it wasn't believable to begin with, and I believe raising taxes was necessary anyways.

As for ehealth and Ornge I could get into detail, but I don't see them as scandals at all. There were some failures in management but no evidence that they were deliberate or corrupt. Were they wasteful? Yes. But waste is inevitable as I've said before. A few $B over ten years, during which time 1000 $B have passed through the hands of Liberals, is tolerable to me. The PCs will waste money too. Maybe less, maybe more. It's not a scandal.

The issues where I break ranks with the Liberals are twofold: First is the blatant vote-buying they performed with the gas plant cancellations (no so much the cost, but the ethics of it). Followed by what appears very much to be an attempted cover up. This crosses the line IMO. It's as bad as any corruption (You Oakville and Mississauga Liberal voters need to give yourselves a gut-check). Second is that I see Wynne as leaning too far left. She has some of the same characteristics I dislike in NDPers. From all reports, she really wants to help everybody and my worry is that she will try!

So I'm voting Green. The arguments I see from others against them boil down to ideology, rather than substance just like people do with all the other parties. But I don't see them as ideological. The tree-hugger stigma that they had for a while (with good reason) has been shed years ago. They know they can't lead based purely on an environmental platform. They have fully-costed policies and serious and capable candidates (Federally Elizabeth May is a model for how all MPs should work). But even their environmental bias is justified IMO. The general trand is for improvements everywhere, safety, health, quality of life... except the environment. I know people won't agree until their commute is partially submerged, and I've accepted that. But again it all boils down to ideology. People see them as ideologically unpalatable and I don't.

So, people will vote Liberal because the party isn't ideologically contrary to their views. Little else seems to matter to voters as far as I can tell.
 
I won't be voting Liberal, but I think I have the answer to this question.

From observing everyone's comments and their allegiances, it seems to me that people vote almost entirely based on ideology, rather than platforms or track records. I see it in others and I recognize it in myself. And it's more about voting AGAINST the "wrong" ideology than voting FOR one.

For me, I can't bring myself to vote NDP or PC because I don't believe their ideological perspective is correct. For example, I can't trust the NDP to reign in the spending. From the NDPers I know, they fit the stereotype of rose-coloured glasses, hippes, do-gooders, bleeding hearts, who believe there isn't a problem in the world that the government can't fix. For them, it's all about binding together as a big happy family and everything will work out.

IMO the Conservatives are the exact opposite. It's about individualism, government is the problem, it's always corrupt and wasteful, there is nothing it can do right. Life is supposed to be a struggle against personal demons and we should all only act in our own personal best interests. Hudak in particular is strongly ideological in this respect. He has the simple but strongly held faith that by stepping out of the way, things will generally improve. For example less taxes = more jobs. It's true on a theoretical level but society is too complex to follow the theory precisely. Besides, if things were that simple then there should be NO taxes (some people will actually agree!)

I believe the truth lies in the middle, and we have to take a more pragmatic approach to government that is more often represented by the Liberals. The problem is that the pragmatic thing for a political party to do is to lie, and cheat and steal (or buy) votes to get elected. So if they say they won't raise taxes and do it anyways, I understand - but I only support it to a certain degree. I suspect most Liberal supporters didn't particularly care about that claim anyways, but it got them a few votes from the right from those who are ambivalent between PCs and Libs. I could live with that untruth because it wasn't believable to begin with, and I believe raising taxes was necessary anyways.

As for ehealth and Ornge I could get into detail, but I don't see them as scandals at all. There were some failures in management but no evidence that they were deliberate or corrupt. Were they wasteful? Yes. But waste is inevitable as I've said before. A few $B over ten years, during which time 1000 $B have passed through the hands of Liberals, is tolerable to me. The PCs will waste money too. Maybe less, maybe more. It's not a scandal.

The issues where I break ranks with the Liberals are twofold: First is the blatant vote-buying they performed with the gas plant cancellations (no so much the cost, but the ethics of it). Followed by what appears very much to be an attempted cover up. This crosses the line IMO. It's as bad as any corruption (You Oakville and Mississauga Liberal voters need to give yourselves a gut-check). Second is that I see Wynne as leaning too far left. She has some of the same characteristics I dislike in NDPers. From all reports, she really wants to help everybody and my worry is that she will try!

So I'm voting Green. The arguments I see from others against them boil down to ideology, rather than substance just like people do with all the other parties. But I don't see them as ideological. The tree-hugger stigma that they had for a while (with good reason) has been shed years ago. They know they can't lead based purely on an environmental platform. They have fully-costed policies and serious and capable candidates (Federally Elizabeth May is a model for how all MPs should work). But even their environmental bias is justified IMO. The general trand is for improvements everywhere, safety, health, quality of life... except the environment. I know people won't agree until their commute is partially submerged, and I've accepted that. But again it all boils down to ideology. People see them as ideologically unpalatable and I don't.

So, people will vote Liberal because the party isn't ideologically contrary to their views. Little else seems to matter to voters as far as I can tell.

Great analysis.
 
Stop arguing here and go ******* vote on Thursday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Stop arguing here and go ****ing vote on Thursday.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's called a discussion, and we can do both.

it seems that Wynne's strategy of saying that a vote for the NDP turns into a vote for PC, is working. Today's poll indicates a shift towards the Liberals.
 
So I'm voting Green.

I suggested that people look into the Green Party earlier in the thread, because they seemed to have been forgotten in the rush. It's always best to cast a vote if there's someone with a platform you can support. Unfortunately I can't.
 
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