Paris Attack

if you don't how would you gain an understanding of what could possible be wrong with either of the systems.. i am trying to view from a neutral stand point to weigh pros and cons but you keep dumping western laws s a standard.

i say blah blah SHOULD BE.

you say nope THE LAW SAYS THIS OR THAT.

can't apply canadian laws on malaysia or vice versa.. compare yes to seek improvement
 
Schneller said:
If Iran and Malaysia are the best examples of successful Islamic states, I'd still rather live in Canada.

in secular states, citizens have the power to elect polititians who create and change the laws under which we live, to reflect new knowledge and social awareness. In a religious state, rules and laws which may have made sense centuries ago, or which may have been the best that culture could have come up with based on the evolution of social awareness at that time, are forced onto today's citizens. Questioning these rules is sacrilegious.



yeah, even with all its warts, I'd much rather live in Canada !!!
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schneller.. the questions wasn't whether to move their.. it was whether or not a state exist that is closer to or less oppressive etc than say the saudis
 
Two50noob said:
You arn't arguing from a neutral side why should I? Also i don't except that all european laws are the best set of rights for everyone there is probably stuff that I don't agree with and your right i'm saying that the Iranian and Malaysian restrictions on political speech are bad because i hold the view that restrictions on most speech is bad as its in violation of a freedom. Im also saying that persecution of Homosexuals and religious minorities in the 2 states are bad.
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respect your views..

they are bad but so are we.. you thinks its easy being a muslim in USA? harassment any less? native treated any better.. i am saying this to compare .. i am saying these to show in the REAL world we are not as much better as some in this thread are portraying to be.

room for improvement every where
i prefer reasonable restrictions you don't..
 
shahfaisal said:
if you don't how would you gain an understanding of what could possible be wrong with either of the systems.. i am trying to view from a neutral stand point to weigh pros and cons but you keep dumping western laws s a standard.

i say blah blah SHOULD BE.

you say nope THE LAW SAYS THIS OR THAT.

can't apply canadian laws on malaysia or vice versa.. compare yes to seek improvement
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But you havn't actually defended any of the law you havn't put forward a defence on why government control of the the press (including blogged) is a positive thing. I can put forward the simply defence that allowing that its an increase is not a unnecessary restriction on freedom its also been a positive form for social change since...forever.
 
shahfaisal said:
schneller.. the questions wasn't whether to move their.. it was whether or not a state exist that is closer to or less oppressive etc than say the saudis
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Right, but let's take the best case examples of both systems and compare: Malaysia and Iran, and say, Sweden or even Canada. Where is a better place to live? Where are citizens happiest?
 
Schneller said:
Right, but let's take the best case examples of both systems and compare: Malaysia and Iran, and say, Sweden or even Canada. Where is a better place to live? Where are citizens happiest?
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we can't use sweden and canada we are too darn good for a fair comparison..

how about uk and france?
 
shahfaisal said:
respect your views..

they are bad but so are we.. you thinks its easy being a muslim in USA? harassment any less? native treated any better.. i am saying this to compare .. i am saying these to show in the REAL world we are not as much better as some in this thread are portraying to be.
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Dude once again you saying..we face discrimination in the US is not a defence of laws that you stated are from countries with good human rights records. I don't care that your a Muslim honestly i'm against all forms of discrimination. Come to my house i will make you comfortable as i would any guest same with Gays,jews or anyone. Im an atheist for me your faith is not somthing that i would use to judge you cause its unimportant to me.

And i will say I don't respect your views I think your bending over backwards to defend government censorship in muslim countries. But and i 100% mean this with all conviction i will lay down my life to protect your right to hold those views.
 
Two50noob said:
But you havn't actually defended any of the law you havn't put forward a defence on why government control of the the press (including blogged) is a positive thing. I can put forward the simply defence that allowing that its an increase is not a unnecessary restriction on freedom its also been a positive form for social change since...forever.
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govt control of the press is better because media at least is serving the interest of a government serving the people... unlike western media
speech restrictions can help avoid nasty situations . reasonable restrictions designed to avoid harms.. religion, race should be off limit as they are in malaysia...helps maintain calm in society.. testing boundaries is great but not by allowing known dangers.. its risk management at a grander scale
 
shahfaisal said:
we can't use sweden and canada we are too darn good for a fair comparison..

how about uk and france?
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Okay, I'll even give you that. Which of those countries (Malaysia/Iran, and UK/France) have greater tolerance for non-conformist political and religious views?
 
shahfaisal said:
govt control of the press is better because media at least is serving the interest of a government serving the people... unlike western media
speech restrictions can help avoid nasty situations . reasonable restrictions designed to avoid harms.. religion, race should be off limit as they are in malaysia...helps maintain calm in society.. testing boundaries is great but not by allowing known dangers.. its risk management at a grander scale
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the simple Responce is 1984

Of course even just economically speaking the benefits of free media are evident. The top countries in economic indexes all have free press(the exception being Russia). Additionally government control of the media undermines Politcal power of the people and when people are disenfranchised they arn't happy hence why on the happiness index its toped with states with free press.
 
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Two50noob said:
Dude once again you saying..we face discrimination in the US is not a defence of laws that you stated are from countries with good human rights records. I don't care that your a Muslim honestly i'm against all forms of discrimination. Come to my house i will make you comfortable as i would any guest same with Gays,jews or anyone. Im an atheist for me your faith is not somthing that i would use to judge you cause its unimportant to me.

And i will say I don't respect your views I think your bending over backwards to defend government censorship in muslim countries. But and i 100% mean this with all conviction i will lay down my life to protect your right to hold those views.
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appreciate your words... i do get your worries.. i agree that governments can tend to get out of hand... thats no reason to allow threats... i do see your point however.

respecting the values of the subject used by charlie in that particular case could have saved a lot of lives.. not that they should have ever been at risk.. that potential could've been eliminated.


again.. appreciate your sentiments
 
shahfaisal said:
respecting the values of the subject used by charlie in that particular case could have saved a lot of lives.. not that they should have ever been at risk.. that potential could've been eliminated.
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stop blaming the victim the fault lies and the feet of the people who carried out the attack . Its like blaming a women for being raped because of what she wearing
 
Schneller said:
Okay, I'll even give you that. Which of those countries (Malaysia/Iran, and UK/France) have greater tolerance for non-conformist political and religious views?
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by law uk.. in reality uk

malaysia in my view is in line with iran on that one..

france however

they protect freedom of speech while violating freedom of religion in practice..
Can We Trust France's 'Freedom' When Hate Cartoons Are OK and Hijabs Are Not?

that to in a public space.. on the bloody street.. you wear a hijab you get fined. thats religious persecution
 
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Two50noob said:
stop blaming the victim the fault lies and the feet of the people who carried out the attack . Its like blaming a women for being raped because of what she wearing
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i am not blaming them for their deaths.. simply recognizing their actions... the killers were messed up to take it that far...

just because they were killed doesnt mean they were not offensive as well
 
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shahfaisal said:
they protect freedom of speech while violating freedom of religion in practice..
Can We Trust France's 'Freedom' When Hate Cartoons Are OK and Hijabs Are Not?
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That Wasnt the question he asked tho (and btw I disagree with any limitation on any clothing for any reason as long as it not being forced on anyone (exception being completely nude))

here is the question again

Okay, I'll even give you that. Which of those countries (Malaysia/Iran, and UK/France) have greater tolerance for non-conformist political and religious views?
 
well you can call it that and justify their actions.. i can't..

just like i can't justify or approve of the actions of the murderers
 
Two50noob said:
That Wasnt the question he asked tho (and btw I disagree with any limitation on any clothing for any reason as long as it not being forced on anyone (exception being completely nude))

here is the question again

Okay, I'll even give you that. Which of those countries (Malaysia/Iran, and UK/France) have greater tolerance for non-conformist political and religious views?
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and i replied UK..
 
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