Ontario should make winter tires mandatory. | Page 21 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Ontario should make winter tires mandatory.

fastar1 said:
That's ridiculous. What about those who want to benefit from the advantages of winter tires? Like those who drive mainly in the winter, or who live in snowier parts of the province, or who want better traction on snow and ice?
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I'd call it what it really is, but that's worth an infraction here.
 
fastar1 said:
That's ridiculous. What about those who want to benefit from the advantages of winter tires? Like those who drive mainly in the winter, or who live in snowier parts of the province, or who want better traction on snow and ice?
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Ok Benjy, I'm getting the hell out of the vortex now.
 
Ontario driver just need more training.....my wifes escape runs snows in the winter but I run my all seasons/siped on my sierra and I have no problems in the winter conditions.
 
Ironically, the TMP Advanced Winter Driving Seminar was cancelled due to Friday's storm...
 
DJM said:
Ironically, the TMP Advanced Winter Driving Seminar was cancelled due to Friday's storm...
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Were they using all season tires :)
 
fastar1 said:
Winter compounds are softer all the time, does that mean they are safer all the time?
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They are safer for winter hence the designation of winter tires.
 
BuckWild said:
They are safer for winter hence the designation of winter tires.
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Actually the winter tire designation is applied to tires that meet specific snow traction performance requirements, it is not an indicator of a tire's safety. The DOT stamp is the closest thing to a certification of safety.
 
fastar1 said:
Actually the winter tire designation is applied to tires that meet specific snow traction performance requirements, it is not an indicator of a tire's safety. The DOT stamp is the closest thing to a certification of safety.
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They are safer for winter USE hence the designation of winter tires.

Btw you are rambling on and kinda crossing up your own views.
 
BuckWild said:
They are safer for winter USE hence the designation of winter tires.
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Again, the winter tire designation is not a safety standard of any kind, it merely warrants a certain minimum level of grip in snow.

Btw you are rambling on and kinda crossing up your own views.
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Show me where.
 
fastar1 said:
Again, the winter tire designation is not a safety standard of any kind, it merely warrants a certain minimum level of grip in snow.

Show me where.
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So... the amount of grip is inversely proportional to stopping distance, i.e, more grip, shorter distance to stop.

How is a shorter stopping distance anything but safer?

Is your argument such that people might feel safer with winter tires and as such might drive faster thus negating any benefit?

For me, I drive more carefully no matter what tires are on my car when snow or ice are on the ground, therefore winter tires are safer as they have a shorter stopping distance. They are also much less annoying and less wasteful when there is snow and ice as I don't spin as much with winters as I do with all seasons.
 
Diesel said:
So... the amount of grip is inversely proportional to stopping distance, i.e, more grip, shorter distance to stop.

How is a shorter stopping distance anything but safer?

Is your argument such that people might feel safer with winter tires and as such might drive faster thus negating any benefit?

For me, I drive more carefully no matter what tires are on my car when snow or ice are on the ground, therefore winter tires are safer as they have a shorter stopping distance. They are also much less annoying and less wasteful when there is snow and ice as I don't spin as much with winters as I do with all seasons.
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Ah, nice to see someone's light bulb turned on.

Shorter stopping distances are almost always safer. This is still a very long way away from demonstrating that we would all be safer on winter tires. It's not as if grip and safety are synonyms! Nobody makes sure their kids are grippy at night. Nobody shops for super-safe race slicks. Traction is just one aspect of safety.

Absolutely, human behaviour plays a major role in safety! Or are we saying there are no bad drivers out there, only bad tires? I already mentioned the ABS dilema from a few years back as an example. https://www.chicagoprfirm.com/Consumer_Education___ABS_Ed.html

Another huge influence in safety is the environment. Winter tires grip better in the cold/snow regardless of where it occurs, so why aren't they mandatory in Texas? Like I asked before, they get cold temps. They get snow. Perhaps it has to do with climate?

So I ask again, if it's a fact that everyone would be safer if winter tires were mandated in Ontario, I want to see the evidence. I will begrudgingly agree with those in favor of making winter tires mandatory if they can show a net benefit.
 
fastar1 said:
Shorter stopping distances are almost always safer.
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But, if "shorter stopping distances are almost always safer." (your words) and winter tires are demonstrated to shorten stopping distances, then wouldn't it be logical to conclude that winter tires are safer because they shorten stopping distances?

And I don't care about locational climate -- if winter tires are designed for temps under 10 C, then any location that has more than a few months per year average under 10 C could benefit from them. Texas -- sure parts can get cold at night, but if the average temp is not much below 10 C on any given month then there might not be any benefit to winter tires.

The following is a gross generalization since I am too lazy to look up the real figures, but:
All seasons = pliable above 10 C
Winters = pliable above -20 C, but wear fast above 10C

Therefore, if your average climate for the month is above 10C, winters would be grippy, but would wear too fast and not be economical.
If your average climate is below 10C, all seasons would be hard and lose grip while winter tires would remain pliable and would grip.
 
Diesel said:
But, if "shorter stopping distances are almost always safer." (your words) and winter tires are demonstrated to shorten stopping distances, then wouldn't it be logical to conclude that winter tires are safer because they shorten stopping distances?
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No, because winter tires are demonstrated to shorten stopping distances in controlled conditions. Typically, in a non-emergency situation with a skilled driver in a safe environment, with snow on the ground. This negates the two big factors that influence safety that I emntioned; behaviour and environment.

And I don't care about locational climate -- if winter tires are designed for temps under 10 C, then any location that has more than a few months per year average under 10 C could benefit from them. Texas -- sure parts can get cold at night, but if the average temp is not much below 10 C on any given month then there might not be any benefit to winter tires.

The following is a gross generalization since I am too lazy to look up the real figures, but:
All seasons = pliable above 10 C
Winters = pliable above -20 C, but wear fast above 10C

Therefore, if your average climate for the month is above 10C, winters would be grippy, but would wear too fast and not be economical.
If your average climate is below 10C, all seasons would be hard and lose grip while winter tires would remain pliable and would grip.
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I am challenging what was proclaimed as "fact". But your opinion is valid.
 
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fastar1 said:
No, because winter tires are demonstrated to shorten stopping distances in controlled conditions. Typically, in a non-emergency situation with a skilled driver in a safe environment, with snow on the ground. This negates the two big factors that influence safety that I emntioned; behaviour and environment.



I am challenging what was proclaimed as "fact". But your opinion is valid.
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Okay, so based on the data available, would you concur that winter tires are 'likely' to be safer due to their 'reported' capability of shortening stopping distances?

Even if your answer is maybe, wouldn't it make sense to give yourself every possible advantage when on the road?

I would still buy winter tires just for the acceleration grip as I can get well ahead of all of the idiots on all seasons from the lights. I can also hold a track better while driving and stop in a shorter distance. For the negligible cost (as they double the life of my summer tires), I will use winter tires.

For the record, however, I am not for legislating winter tire use. I am a libertarian and am not for more legislation. People should make their own decisions.
 
If you're asking my opinion then no, I would expect mandatory winter tires to have nearly zero safety benefit in Ontario. Close enough that the extra cost would wipe out any possible upside.

I crunched the numbers earlier by pulling collision statistics directly from Quebec (a more wintery climate) before and after they mandated winter tires, and the most optimistic cost estimation (everyone changing their own winter tires, and wearing them out before they go bad). There was no benefit.
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...es-mandatory&p=1930703&viewfull=1#post1930703

If you don't want to factor in costs (somebody please, think of the children!) then just take the 2-5% improvement in safety in QC and estimate what that would translate to in ON. Close to 0%, as I said above.

Now this is not conclusive evidence for many reasons, but it's far better than "you farking cheap cloptrodders, get some damn snow tires already!!!"
 
fastar1 said:
If you're asking my opinion then no, I would expect mandatory winter tires to have nearly zero safety benefit in Ontario. Close enough that the extra cost would wipe out any possible upside.

I crunched the numbers earlier by pulling collision statistics directly from Quebec (a more wintery climate) before and after they mandated winter tires, and the most optimistic cost estimation (everyone changing their own winter tires, and wearing them out before they go bad). There was no benefit.
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...es-mandatory&p=1930703&viewfull=1#post1930703

If you don't want to factor in costs (somebody please, think of the children!) then just take the 2-5% improvement in safety in QC and estimate what that would translate to in ON. Close to 0%, as I said above.

Now this is not conclusive evidence for many reasons, but it's far better than "you farking cheap cloptrodders, get some damn snow tires already!!!"
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Where are the stats that indicate no benefit?

From your own auto123 link:
The evidence is there
A study conducted in 2001-2002 by Transport Quebec, CAA-Quebec, the Centre de recherche industrielle du Québec and the Association des spécialistes du pneu du Québec revealed that winter tires generally out-perform all-season tires in winter driving conditions.

On a slightly snow-covered road at -20°C, winter tires considerably reduce braking distances whether you're driving a car, a minivan or a 4x4.

Four-wheel drive and all-season tires together allow faster accelerations from 0 to 50 km/h than two-wheel drive and all-season tires, but braking performance is not necessarily adequate.

In the study, winter tires also displayed superior grip on heavily snow-covered roads at -2°C, especially upon braking.

Only when a bit of snow covers the road and the temperature rises back do all-season tires offer an advantage over winter tires. According to the results, only a subcompact car riding on winter tires will take longer to reach 50 km/h. But in the case of a minivan or 4x4, winter tires again prove their supremacy.
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