I know what he is saying, I was just screwing with him. But thanks for trying 
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MotoGP 2015
- Thread starter johnscruiser
- Start date
I know what he is saying, I was just screwing with him. But thanks for trying
Your effervescent postings in these dangerous times are appreciated. Your restrained use of the smilie is pitch perfect.
Well well well, this is very interesting...
So, in the process of examining other races to compare against the two where Marquez is accused of deliberately slowing down, many pointed to the first race of the year where four riders were having one of the greatest battles of recent history. It turns out, that was not 100% outright racing either! In this case, it's Dovizioso who slowed up deliberately and then sped up and slowed dawn a few times at the front, bunching up the pack of four and creating the illusion of a hard-fought race.
The pattern is clear compared to any other race where racers' lap times change gradually, in a curve, rather than suddenly up and down like a jagged edge. Looking at the race with that in mind, it suddenly becomes clear that he overshot turn 1 several times when he was in the lead, handing over first place to Lorenzo, until eventually Lorenzo was just way too slow even for Dovi's sandbagging, and he couldn't re-pass him. Other than that, Dovi only once overshot turn one, and that was to let Rossi by.
There's a possible very easy explanation for him to do that. My guess is most likely Dovizioso didn't want to win because he thought it would trigger Article 2.4.4.5.5 of the FIM rulebook that saw some technical advantages removed from the team. He probably failed to realize that the podium from 2014, and/or Iannone's podium finish behind him, would trigger that rule anyways, just by finishing second. But the pattern is absolutely clear and it doesn't make sense for a rider's pace to change like that under any other circumstance than sandbagging.
It's not pleasant to hear, but that Losail race was also not a genuine race, just like Philip Island wasn't. It was manufactured by one rider who bunched the leading riders up. In fact, I have to wonder how often this happens and we don't notice. I've checked out 5 races this way so far for 2015, and three of them have this kind of deliberate 'tampering' (the other two are Argentina and Aragon, which look like out-and-out genuine races).
So, in the process of examining other races to compare against the two where Marquez is accused of deliberately slowing down, many pointed to the first race of the year where four riders were having one of the greatest battles of recent history. It turns out, that was not 100% outright racing either! In this case, it's Dovizioso who slowed up deliberately and then sped up and slowed dawn a few times at the front, bunching up the pack of four and creating the illusion of a hard-fought race.
The pattern is clear compared to any other race where racers' lap times change gradually, in a curve, rather than suddenly up and down like a jagged edge. Looking at the race with that in mind, it suddenly becomes clear that he overshot turn 1 several times when he was in the lead, handing over first place to Lorenzo, until eventually Lorenzo was just way too slow even for Dovi's sandbagging, and he couldn't re-pass him. Other than that, Dovi only once overshot turn one, and that was to let Rossi by.
There's a possible very easy explanation for him to do that. My guess is most likely Dovizioso didn't want to win because he thought it would trigger Article 2.4.4.5.5 of the FIM rulebook that saw some technical advantages removed from the team. He probably failed to realize that the podium from 2014, and/or Iannone's podium finish behind him, would trigger that rule anyways, just by finishing second. But the pattern is absolutely clear and it doesn't make sense for a rider's pace to change like that under any other circumstance than sandbagging.
It's not pleasant to hear, but that Losail race was also not a genuine race, just like Philip Island wasn't. It was manufactured by one rider who bunched the leading riders up. In fact, I have to wonder how often this happens and we don't notice. I've checked out 5 races this way so far for 2015, and three of them have this kind of deliberate 'tampering' (the other two are Argentina and Aragon, which look like out-and-out genuine races).
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It can be, like when Lorenzo did it in 2012(?) Actually that would be another good race to chart and show the similarities with what Marquez (and now Dovi) did.
The thing is Lorenzo needed MM to finish very low in the order, so he was doing it to benefit his championship, not his race. As for Dovi, it seems like he did it because he might have thought it was better for the team, so also doing it for the championship, not for the race. And these last two times, Marquez did it for...? The answer is the same, to hinder the championship, not to improve his race.
Riders do it all the time, and when they do that's not what their performance looks like. There's no sudden and ragged change in speed.
Also, you're ignoring the pattern of MM always "preserving his tires" when it harmed VR, or Dovi always "preserving his tires" when he found himself in the lead. And apparently preserving tires means riders will wildly overshoot a corner somewhere?
Wake up people, please.
Oh come on man, this recent situation is completely different. Everyone wants to see a good fair battle, that's why we tune in, but that is not what occurred. How quickly people forget about the last rider who rode irresponsibly and reckless like MM has been doing, Simoncelli. I can't be the only one who draws the same similarities, how many times has MM crashed now? He has nothing to prove, the kid is talented, now he needs to be mature to guarantee a long career in the sport. I'm glad Vale took it upon himself to police him, call him out for it if you want, it's not his job, but there are more important things than points and fame.
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lator-illa
Well-known member
So when is it acceptable to sandbag? Rossi did it all the time back when he could get away with it, then he would just dart off and win the race.
Lorenzo's strategy in Valencia 2013 was considered genius, and even Pedrosa (who received the brunt end of Lorenzo's aggressive passes) agreed and stated he should've done it even before that race. Even if Marquez was in fact sandbagging, why is he all in the wrong? It's still Rossi's responsibility to pass him. And he had PLENTY of opportunity to dice it with Lorenzo in both races.
Lorenzo's strategy in Valencia 2013 was considered genius, and even Pedrosa (who received the brunt end of Lorenzo's aggressive passes) agreed and stated he should've done it even before that race. Even if Marquez was in fact sandbagging, why is he all in the wrong? It's still Rossi's responsibility to pass him. And he had PLENTY of opportunity to dice it with Lorenzo in both races.
Sandbagging with consistent riding and lap times wouldn't have been a problem, it's how he did it. It was wreckless and inconsistent which is dangerous and obviously very frustrating. He was fast enough to pass on the outside that goes a little beyond sandbagging lol
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lator-illa
Well-known member
Eh? I fail to see your point here. lol
I was merely calling out Vale's die hard fans and their hypocrisy.
That's a great question, and I don't know the answer. It should probably have something to do with intent, as in in a rider doing it for their own benefit as opposed to doing it for no personal benefit but to punish another rider?
But if that's the answer, then how can the rules enforce intent? And isn't there some valid intent for Marc to claim he's doing it to improve his chances of beating Rossi's career WC record?
But at least we're asking the right questions now.
Sorry I was talking about your point of MM being praised for battling it out and then being crucified for it this time. My point was that the riding was not the same in both cases.
Intent is pretty hard to prove. But I have to say, if Marc's intent was to do the most possible harm to Rossi's bid for the championship, why didn't he put himself between Lorenzo and Rossi at PI rather than win the race? It should have been easy to place himself in second and cruise across the finish line behind Lorenzo.
Exactly, he should have run his pace and let the positions play out.
Because he wants to win, and if he can smell it he'll run for it?
Or maybe because he's doing it with an eye to his career record, that means wins, championships, poles, fast laps, everything?
Whatever the reason, his priority was to win, and secondary goal was to obstruct Rossi. My only problem is the latter. That's not what I want to watch racing for.
redridernl
Well-known member
lator-illa and a few others are approaching this argument with common sense and facts. Everyone else, as someone else mentioned, are like the the cult of Rossi.
Pedrosa pointed out Rossi's hypocrisy. Randy Mamola, Guy Coulon, Bradley Smith & others have pointed out that Marquez slowing mid race at Philip Island because the tires overheated is perfectly reasonable. Jeremy Burgess said this isn't the Rossi he knew. There are many people taking Rossi's side but there are also plenty of well respected people who have been involved in the sport for a long time saying that the conspiracy theories are out to lunch and regardless of what prompted it, purposely going off line and slowing to run someone wide can not be excused.
Rossi went to Pedrosa after that beating he took at Motegi and asked Dani why he raced him so hard. Seriously. The pressure has gotten to Rossi.
Pedrosa pointed out Rossi's hypocrisy. Randy Mamola, Guy Coulon, Bradley Smith & others have pointed out that Marquez slowing mid race at Philip Island because the tires overheated is perfectly reasonable. Jeremy Burgess said this isn't the Rossi he knew. There are many people taking Rossi's side but there are also plenty of well respected people who have been involved in the sport for a long time saying that the conspiracy theories are out to lunch and regardless of what prompted it, purposely going off line and slowing to run someone wide can not be excused.
Rossi went to Pedrosa after that beating he took at Motegi and asked Dani why he raced him so hard. Seriously. The pressure has gotten to Rossi.
Which is exactly what he did. You can't expect rider to go at 110% for every lap of the race; the bike/tires and rider won't make it to the end riding like that.
I'm a Rossi fan. I even have a model of one of his old Yamaha's on my desk at work. But we all know he can be a ruthless competitor. Both MM and Rossi were in the wrong at Sepang, but it was Rossi's task to cleanly pass and pull away from MM, not try to run him off the track to make space for himself.
Link?
I think you mean Aragon, and that info comes from one source, a known unreliable Spanish paper that called it a 'secret' meeting. So either Rossi told the reporter, or Pedrosa told the reporter, or they're inventing things. An Italian paper called it a conspiracy between MM, his manager, and JL. But that's all just nationalistic BS. MM doesn't need anybody to know or to help him do what he's doing.
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