MotoGP 2015

[lator-illa]

That is the most ridiculous point I have seen you try and make here, I think. Come on, is your position really to say that Rossi should feel good saying that it is completely out of his hands, and that all that has to happen is Lorenzo to completely screw up all on his own accord, or due to some other bone head on track??

Do you not feel that this is complete crap, due to the aspect of who is on who's actual team?? If both MM and JL were on Hondas, this would be far easier to stomach, and to be honest with you I would feel much better with Pedrosa on Yamaha than Lorenzo after all of this. It would be like a dream to me, and I have never been a Pedrosa fan in my life.

This is like some team trading a player to another, and then having that player sandbag and cause the team he is now playing for to lose, like some kind of sporting espionage.

Now, this is not quite as extreme a case as my example, but you must admit that the Hondas should only work with the Hondas and the Yamahas each other as well. What will happen to Jorge next year, if Vale is slower and Marc is fighting with him for the championship?? Do either of them think Vale will do them anything but try to screw them, now??

Nowhere was I implying that Rossi should "feel good" about his current position. What I was saying is that he should finish out the season regardless if he was wronged or not. By him saying he's going to boycott the last race because he felt he was unfairly unpunished, then yes he does look spoiled and self entitled.

You're talking like you have fool proof that Marquez and Lorenzo were colluding. Where is your evidence? I've always stated that there isn't enough of it to prove this. I have no bias and I think i've been pretty clear that whatever was going on was just good racing. And let me ask you, during the PI race, Vale had his chance of showing his front wheel to Jorge. It didn't happen...why? Jorge passed him in Sepang and Vale didn't fight back. Why? At that point, was he expecting Marquez to just clear out and let him work to get to Jorge? To me, it looked like he didn't have the pace that day and neither did Marc. And don't get me wrong, this is not to say Marc isn't at fault. I've never really agreed with his aggressive reckless riding style and his passes were seriously jeopardizing the championship.

Also, Vale's fans are only shouting collusion because Vale presumed so. If Rossi had never mentioned it to the press, would they still be thinking the same thing?

Anyway, championship ruined. I was really hoping for a Valencia scrap between the two Yamaha riders, and the championship being determined in the last corner.

 

[Corsara]

Sounds like Vale already has conceded the championship. I mean wtf...am I the only to say it's not over till it's over?

http://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/rossi-unsure-if-he-will-race-in-valencia-motogp-decider/

I will lose all respect for him if he does this.

In my opinion by openly flirting with the idea of not taking part in Valencia is his way of saying F.U. to FIM. In my opinion---rightfully so! And they know pissing him off in this way opened a can of worms. This is BAD for business, given who Rossi is and the magnitude of his fan base. After the last couple of races, I'm almost decided not to buy the MotoGP subscription next year, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

If he wants to go out as a whiny, spoiled, self-entitled brat then by all means. To me this is very unbecoming of a 9 time world champion. It's not like he's down 26 points and there's absolutely no hope of catching up. All it takes is for Lorenzo to bin it and he wins, no matter what place he's in.



At this point, I wouldn't be surprised. And on top of that, his fans would probably justify it as a fair move.

If JL bins it, Rossi will win the championship regardless of if he participates in Valencia or not.

 

[Corsara]

Race direction (Mike Webb) acknowledged the sand-bagging


“Finally, we actually believe there is fault on both sides.

“Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules.

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding, causing a crash. So he's been penalised for that. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

source:http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224594/1/motogp-race-director-explains-rossi-punishment.html

Technically, Marquez was the one who made the contact, wasn't it. He had enough space and then another patch of pavement to bring it up and avoid the touch. And technically, the one on the inside has the right of way, at least that's what the rule book says if they were to stick to the rules.

 

[SweetOnion]

Nowhere was I implying that Rossi should "feel good" about his current position. What I was saying is that he should finish out the season regardless if he was wronged or not. By him saying he's going to boycott the last race because he felt he was unfairly unpunished, then yes he does look spoiled and self entitled.

You're talking like you have fool proof that Marquez and Lorenzo were colluding. Where is your evidence? I've always stated that there isn't enough of it to prove this. I have no bias and I think i've been pretty clear that whatever was going on was just good racing. And let me ask you, during the PI race, Vale had his chance of showing his front wheel to Jorge. It didn't happen...why? Jorge passed him in Sepang and Vale didn't fight back. Why? At that point, was he expecting Marquez to just clear out and let him work to get to Jorge? To me, it looked like he didn't have the pace that day and neither did Marc. And don't get me wrong, this is not to say Marc isn't at fault. I've never really agreed with his aggressive reckless riding style and his passes were seriously jeopardizing the championship.

Also, Vale's fans are only shouting collusion because Vale presumed so. If Rossi had never mentioned it to the press, would they still be thinking the same thing?

Anyway, championship ruined. I was really hoping for a Valencia scrap between the two Yamaha riders, and the championship being determined in the last corner.

I was just taking what you said about it not being 26 points and all that has to happen.... If that is all that has to happen, then why shouldn't Rossi watch from the VIP area and get drunk with his buddies while doing so?? He could have fun, and risk zero to his body or machine. The outcome will be the same, either way...

Have a read of this, it is an interesting other side of the coin to being a spoiled brat. Perhaps people will love you.

http://jalopnik.com/kimi-raikkonen-once-retired-to-his-yacht-during-the-mon-1636663396

I don't know if you are an F1 fan or remember this, but Kimi got tired of his car breaking and his decided to just pull over when it broke and go get drunk.

Edit: sorry, didn't reply to your point on Collusion. There obviously isn't any real easy way to put proof out there.. it's like colluding in a card game, you really have to have a lot of time to sample in order to prove it is happening. Anway watching Marc race is like watching Bautista a couple years ago, doing anything he can on Rossi to pass. Whether he is colluding with Lorenzo or not is not the real question... it is whether he is trying to get in Rossi's way more than he tries to get in everyone else's. I believe the video of all the races of the last couple years speak volumes on this. Although, he does crash into a lot of people.

 

[inreb]

And don't get me wrong, this is not to say Marc isn't at fault. I've never really agreed with his aggressive reckless riding style and his passes were seriously jeopardizing the championship.

Well, there you go. Would you say needlessly, maybe maliciously jeopardizing the championship or just good ole boy jeopardizing the championship? This late in the season it's between two guys. And now they've arbitrarily put one guys' back against the wall. He should sit it out. That would add more to his legend than coming second in the championship. I'd respect that.

 

[Corsara]

Well, there you go. Would you say needlessly, maybe maliciously jeopardizing the championship or just good ole boy jeopardizing the championship? This late in the season it's between two guys. And now they've arbitrarily put one guys' back against the wall. He should sit it out. That would add more to his legend than coming second in the championship. I'd respect that.

I share the same sentiments. +1

 

[lator-illa]

In my opinion by openly flirting with the idea of not taking part in Valencia is his way of saying F.U. to FIM. In my opinion---rightfully so! And they know pissing him off in this way opened a can of worms. This is BAD for business, given who Rossi is and the magnitude of his fan base. After the last couple of races, I'm almost decided not to buy the MotoGP subscription next year, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

This further solidifies my point that by him removing himself from the race in protest, he would look like a spoiled, whiny, self-entitled brat. I'm Valentino Rossi, who are you to slap me on the wrist and penalize me.

With or without him, MotoGP will go on. Perhaps not on the same level of popularity, but I doubt the company would fold just because he's no longer there.

I was just taking what you said about it not being 26 points and all that has to happen.... If that is all that has to happen, then why shouldn't Rossi watch from the VIP area and get drunk with his buddies while doing so?? He could have fun, and risk zero to his body or machine. The outcome will be the same, either way...

Have a read of this, it is an interesting other side of the coin to being a spoiled brat. Perhaps people will love you.

http://jalopnik.com/kimi-raikkonen-once-retired-to-his-yacht-during-the-mon-1636663396

I don't know if you are an F1 fan or remember this, but Kimi got tired of his car breaking and his decided to just pull over when it broke and go get drunk.

Edit: sorry, didn't reply to your point on Collusion. There obviously isn't any real easy way to put proof out there.. it's like colluding in a card game, you really have to have a lot of time to sample in order to prove it is happening. Anway watching Marc race is like watching Bautista a couple years ago, doing anything he can on Rossi to pass. Whether he is colluding with Lorenzo or not is not the real question... it is whether he is trying to get in Rossi's way more than he tries to get in everyone else's. I believe the video of all the races of the last couple years speak volumes on this. Although, he does crash into a lot of people.

You tell me why that shouldn't happen. I personally would like for him to still be out there. If he decides not to go out there, then all the commentaries about him being genuinely happy about just getting on the bike and race is a facade? He was penalized by RD, he's gotta face up to it. But don't go out like that...


And sorry, I stopped following F1 since Senna died. No other driver has come close.....maybe Mika Hakkinen.

 

[chimera]

I don't know if I'd want VR to sit this race out.... I understand why he would want to but IMO I believe he should go out there and work on his set up all weekend and have the race of his life! He should show Dorna, MM, and JL that regardless of the situation he won't end the season without trying. As a fan of his I would want this more than not showing up, in my mind I would remember that action better than say JL winning the championship without VR on the grid.
Over the winter break Dorna should take a real hard look at their 'rule book' and address issues that DP indicated were 'grey areas'.

 

[SweetOnion]

I don't know if I'd want VR to sit this race out.... I understand why he would want to but IMO I believe he should go out there and work on his set up all weekend and have the race of his life! He should show Dorna, MM, and JL that regardless of the situation he won't end the season without trying. As a fan of his I would want this more than not showing up, in my mind I would remember that action better than say JL winning the championship without VR on the grid.
Over the winter break Dorna should take a real hard look at their 'rule book' and address issues that DP indicated were 'grey areas'.

Lets be honest, 100% Rossi starts this weekend. He is trying to pressure them and stir **** up in the press to get this garbage overturned no doubt. I would not be shocked in one bit, mark my words people, Rossi is going to have a special helmet for Valencia... and if he does, it will be shocking.

 

[lator-illa]

Well, there you go. Would you say needlessly, maybe maliciously jeopardizing the championship or just good ole boy jeopardizing the championship? This late in the season it's between two guys. And now they've arbitrarily put one guys' back against the wall. He should sit it out. That would add more to his legend than coming second in the championship. I'd respect that.

Hey, I agree that some of Marc's passes were reckless. Some corners he could've held off and waited at the next. I don't know Marc's mindset so I can't say whether he's purposeful with his moves. He's been making the same type of passes since the smaller classes so part of me sees it as just his style of riding.

Let me bring up this scenario then. Vale and Jorge are separated by 7 points. Which means for Jorge to win the championship in Valencia, he needs someone between them. Let's say Jorge is leading the race and a Honda is between him and Valentino. Is the expectation then for that Honda to move over and not fight over position? The argument here is that at this point, the races should only be between Jorge and Valentino. But that would essentially mean a Honda is colluding with Vale and handing him the championship on a silver platter.

Where do you draw the line? Would it be fair then to remove Marquez from the race because Vale thinks he's got a hidden agenda against him? Again without conclusive evidence, I will look at it as Marc is battling for position like any other race, just like how Dani and Andrea were fighting for position.

 

[fastar1]

There obviously isn't any real easy way to put proof out there.. it's like colluding in a card game, you really have to have a lot of time to sample in order to prove it is happening.

I think the race data offers tons of sample points from the last two races, and a baseline to compare against, derived from all previous races. There is no mistaking the pattern of sabotage that Marquez is performing against Rossi based on that. Plus everything that can be observed, and all the other arguments in favour with no arguments against.

Marquez is making a mockery of the sport by turning it into a venue for his personal vendetta. It's quite provable.

 

[inreb]

lato-illa

Every rider should be doing their darndest tootenest to score the highest position they possibly can, let the chips fall where they may.

 

[lator-illa]

as it should be..

 

[SweetOnion]

I think the race data offers tons of sample points from the last two races, and a baseline to compare against, derived from all previous races. There is no mistaking the pattern of sabotage that Marquez is performing against Rossi based on that. Plus everything that can be observed, and all the other arguments in favour with no arguments against.

Marquez is making a mockery of the sport by turning it into a venue for his personal vendetta. It's quite provable.

Thank you for this. I thought we were speaking non-common sense here.

and just for the record, to lator-illa or anyone else who is on that side of things... What I feel the "proper" thing to do would be to follow Rossi as closely as possible until the end of the race, and then over take him at the end of the race, or if Rossi catches the lead group and he can over take multiple people, then do so...

You don't have to quit racing, or let guys through... if he passes you, and you are arguably not much quicker, you stay behind until later in the race, then try again. Just like in Moto3, you see guys getting a bit angry and waving dudes behind them all the time. You don't see that in closing laps, it is only in the second group to close down the lead group. That is how it should have been.

 

[lator-illa]

I really don't want to post anymore on this issue because clearly, we all have differing viewpoints on the situation.

I think the race data offers tons of sample points from the last two races, and a baseline to compare against, derived from all previous races. There is no mistaking the pattern of sabotage that Marquez is performing against Rossi based on that. Plus everything that can be observed, and all the other arguments in favour with no arguments against.

Marquez is making a mockery of the sport by turning it into a venue for his personal vendetta. It's quite provable.

I'm genuinely curious as to where and how you obtained data to conclude that Marquez was sabotaging Rossi. Not being argumentative, i'd actually like to know as you seem to be confident that it's a personal vendetta.

Thank you for this. I thought we were speaking non-common sense here.

and just for the record, to lator-illa or anyone else who is on that side of things... What I feel the "proper" thing to do would be to follow Rossi as closely as possible until the end of the race, and then over take him at the end of the race, or if Rossi catches the lead group and he can over take multiple people, then do so...

You don't have to quit racing, or let guys through... if he passes you, and you are arguably not much quicker, you stay behind until later in the race, then try again. Just like in Moto3, you see guys getting a bit angry and waving dudes behind them all the time. You don't see that in closing laps, it is only in the second group to close down the lead group. That is how it should have been.

Again, maybe i'm just naive. I don't race so perhaps other racers can chime in. Are there unwritten rules between racers that they should behave this way? They should only pass near the end of the race?

 

[fastar1]

I'm genuinely curious as to where and how you obtained data to conclude that Marquez was sabotaging Rossi. Not being argumentative, i'd actually like to know as you seem to be confident that it's a personal vendetta.

I'm not the type of person who's offended whenever someone asks me a question. I'm happy to provide hard evidence to support my claims.

In order to make it most convincing to you, I'll need you to give me examples of races that you deem are similar to the last two, where I allege Marquez was deliberately slowing down to impede Rossi. At least one race would be good, but two or three would be better for the sake of demonstrating the consistent difference between what Marquez does and what everybody else does. It might take me a day or two once I know which races to compare it against.

 

[justmike]

hahahaha watch all the video race direction did......

I guess RD might have figured Marquez' zero points was penalty for his part in this fiasco.

 

[kwtoxman]

One interpretation here re mm actions and lap times.

http://www.motoroids.com/news/sepang-clash-2015-whos-really-at-fault

 

[SweetOnion]

Again, maybe i'm just naive. I don't race so perhaps other racers can chime in. Are there unwritten rules between racers that they should behave this way? They should only pass near the end of the race?

Michael Laverty is a well known non-partial racer.

Michael Laverty ‏@MichaelLaverty Oct 25
Marc broke the unwritten rule, always RESPECT those fighting for a Championship when you're not. Vale got enraged and hung him out to dry

 

[nfq]

Every rider should be doing their darndest tootenest to score the highest position they possibly can, let the chips fall where they may.

This is at it should be. The stats that are out there for everyone to digest on the last 2 races, show that not all riders were doing this.