Mapping/power commanders

[Priller]

That's one of those slippery-slope questions.

Why do *any* kind of performance modification on any modern motorcycle?

Especially when:

a) most people skills don't even approach the limits of their bike. I'll readily admit to being in this camp.
b) the commensurate amount spent on training would yield far better results in performance

If we were to only ride motorcycles whose performance were within the limits of our riding abilities, most people would be stuck on a Harley Davidson...

Fair points all, and I'm as guilty as anyone for wanting improvement for improvements sake, rather than actual need.

But to me, the latest round of mega motor bikes means we've kind of hit a physics-limited max performance wall somewhere around 175-200 hp. I was recently reading about how most sportbike-length bikes can only accelerate at roughly 1 g before they start to wheelie, which is why many have topped out 0-60 times of just under 3 seconds. Adding power to my RC51, for example, will result in faster acceleration because it 'only' makes about 120 hp peak, and struggles to hit 1 g. Adding power to a Super Duke, though, will just mean more power limitation is required to keep from looping, up until you're going pretty fast. And because it's the opposite of a streamliner, power increases are only likely to result in a few more km/h top speed.

On the other hand, power tuning can add smoothness and tractability, which can help make throttle response more predictable coming out of a corner. That's why I was talking about how ECU mods are as much about part-throttle tuning as max power/WOT fuelling.

Then there's non-power mods like suspension that I think benefit most riders in most circumstances, whether it's comfort or better control, but that's a whole other discussion...

Some car ecus track mileage they have been used for. If you swap ecus, he mileage on the dash wouldnt match the mileage in the ecu. No idea if bike ECU do the same thing.

Supposedly the Aprilia one doesn't track mileage that way, but who knows. I definitely can't speak for other manufacturers. This is a company that may be simply faking EPA noise compliance, if the rumours are true, so all bets are off...

In another life I was involved with building CBR250Rs for the spec series that Honda Canada ran in CSBK.
We installed a Hindle slip-on and put it on the dyno with a sniffer - no other mods.
The thing was running so lean the dyno operator only gave it a couple of passes before saying we were going to cause severe damage.

When I see (or hear) the squids running around with aftermarket mufflers or no mufflers at all I cringe.

When I was shopping for my bike, I looked at a used Tuono where the owner had added a wide open SC Project GP-style slip-on with cat delete and done about 5,000 km. Looking at the dash, it was showing stock fueling. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. The fact that it was offensively loud was the kicker...

 

[TK4]

Want to make your bike faster ?

Simplify. And Add Lightness | Cycle World

 

[Lightcycle]

Want to make your bike faster ?

Simplify. And Add Lightness | Cycle World

Yes!

And not just faster, but more nimble, easier to handle, brakes in a shorter distance.

 

[Priller]

Yes!

And not just faster, but more nimble, easier to handle, brakes in a shorter distance.

To multiply the effect, add lightness to unsprung or rotating mass (exponentially beneficial for wheels, covering both bases).

Still, spending $3k on a set of nice forged or carbon rims feels way less exciting than spending it on an exhaust and horsepower. You can see and hear the exhaust, and bragging about dyno curves gets more attention than losing 9 lbs of unsprung mass...

 

[bitzz]

Funny that.
If you ask anyone that KNOWS, the best performance money you can spend is lighter wheels. Makes everything BETTER.
REDUCE UNSPRUNG WEIGHT.
No one does though.

 

[Lightcycle]

To multiply the effect, add lightness to unsprung or rotating mass (exponentially beneficial for wheels, covering both bases).

Still, spending $3k on a set of nice forged or carbon rims feels way less exciting than spending it on an exhaust and horsepower. You can see and hear the exhaust, and bragging about dyno curves gets more attention than losing 9 lbs of unsprung mass...

Maybe I'm weird, but a nice set of gold Marchesini or BST carbon fiber wheels makes me feel kinda funny down there.

Like climbing the rope in gym class...

These were mine. I loved them so much:

 

[Evoex]

Funny that.
If you ask anyone that KNOWS, the best performance money you can spend is lighter wheels. Makes everything BETTER.
REDUCE UNSPRUNG WEIGHT.
No one does though.

not worth it on the street, few RR buddies with the new RR M Package have cracked them on our glorious pavement.

 

[matt365]

LTTP, but figured I'd throw my 0.02 in. Can't comment on how KTM handles flashing, but for Aprilia, it's a bit complicated. I'm sure there is some overlap.

First off, a piggyback is useless for the bike, as it can really only control fueling. Modern ECU's operate off so many parameters now (speed, rpm, throttle, IMU feedback, O2 sensor, gear, etc.) that simply adjusting air/fuel at max throttle is basically a meaningless mod. To get the most out of the bike, a full top-to-bottom remap needs to be done, which can take dozens of hours to get right. There's one guy in Italy (Gabro Racing) who races Aprilia and has developed maps over hundreds of hours of testing that are regarded as by far the best maps available. Part throttle response is much more important for street riding (with 175 hp, who is at full throttle regularly on the street?), and a good map will make that better across the board.

For slip-ons that delete the cat (all but one Akra branded Aprilia option), you need to remap or the bike will run lean. Aprilia offers either a 'Race' ECU swap or a code that unlocks your ECU if you buy an Aprilia-approved Akrapovic slip-on or full system. This will not void your warranty, but it's not as aggressive a map as the above mentioned one. The kicker is that they charge a huge premium for the unlock code, almost doubling the cost of the 'approved' Aprilia slip-on.

Going outside the official dealership channels opens a few more options. You can buy a tablet that will reflash the ECU as often as you like using maps downloaded from various sites (or pay a mechanic who has one to do it once). You can buy the race ECU and flash that, keeping the stock ECU for swapping back in if you have a warranty claim to make. Or you can buy a pre-flashed ECU like the Gabro unit first mentioned (he used to sell his maps separately, but piracy killed that model, and he used to flash ECU's sent to him, but has stopped doing that because of import/export problems). Doing any of this risks having a warranty claim denied, but nobody seems to have actually seen that happen according to the Aprilia Forums stuff I've read.

I know all this is Aprilia-centric, but I'm assuming there's some overlap with KTM, particularly on ECU flash vs piggyback.

I ended up just deciding to sit tight until my warranty is up, just to be safe. Didn't want to go down the shifty approach of swapping out ECU's if I needed to make a claim, but the biggest reason is there really isn't a compelling reason to change the exhaust except for looks. The stocker sounds fantastic (no idea how it's legal) and isn't that heavy. Swapping gets maybe 1-2 hp, which I would never notice in a million years. It's not like I feel like the bike is underpowered. I may get the Gabro tune and a cat-delete slip-on at some point, but it would be pure vanity. .

Even Gabro's tunes are a variant of the official aprilia race tune. Brentune and Shiv's OFT are the same.

When the warranty is up:
Just use Guzzidiag and flash it yourself for free.

If you aren't comfortable doing it, pm me and drop by. I'm a half hour from you.

I've done 4 Tuonos so far (all for a case of beer).

@Katatonic came by in the summer and we flashed his 2017.

I did mine and kept the stock can on for a bit. It disables the valve, so its a nice throaty growl in the low revs. Now I have a carbon hindle evo can.

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[Priller]

Even Gabro's tunes are a variant of the official aprilia race tune. Brentune and Shiv's OFT are the same.

When the warranty is up:
Just use Guzzidiag and flash it yourself for free.

If you aren't comfortable doing it, pm me and drop by. I'm a half hour from you.

I've done 4 Tuonos so far (all for a case of beer).

@Katatonic came by in the summer and we flashed his 2017.

I did mine and kept the stock can on for a bit. It disables the valve, so its a nice throaty growl in the low revs. Now I have a carbon hindle evo can.

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Thanks for the offer, and I may take you up on that if I pick up a slip-on those summer! It's the most cost-effective option by miles.

That said, I have been told that while it's based on the same race tune, the Gabro one is by far the best. A friend runs a shop specialising in Italian bikes in Vancouver and helps some folks (with money to spend) tune bikes at Mission and Area 27. He was of the opinion that the GRT setup was far better than the other options.

I just had a look at the Aprilia Special Parts shop, and it looks like they also sell an UpMap option for €360 (vs €590 for a whole ECU), but it's far from cheap. The GuzziDiag cable is €23.77...

 

[LukePakkala]

I'll wade in here... as to re-flashes and manufacturers being able to tell: yes, they can (BMW, Ducati, Triumph and Yamaha for sure). I have had 2 ECU's get locked out from the OE diagnostic equipment because of an aftermarket reflash. Thus ending any chance of an electrical or powertrain warranty claim.

Every bike that comes in to the shop gets connected to the computer, they all (save Suzuki as of today) report back to the main system in one way or another. If a dealer does not connect them, the manufacturer could claim the required services were not completed correctly, as prescribed, and thus: denied warranty claim. It doesn't happen often, but it can.

In terms of the piggyback systems of choice (PC5, Bazzaz, whatever), we can usually tell based on tooling marks on specific connectors or wire tapping marks on the TPS signal wire, but it would be much harder to prove the cause in the event of a failure. It very rarely happens - in fact never to me. We can usually tell the general running condition based on other factors. If I have a bike that runs like snot and the max voltage from the oxygen sensor is like 0.65 v, and the bike has ~10k km... it's been running pig-rich and we go looking for the reason. We have yet to need to use info like this in a warranty case, but it exists, if the shop has to go looking.

"Factory" (read dealer level) re-flashing does happen, Triumph and Ducati make it very easy, just speak to your local dealer and they will advise you. Almost all exhausts come with the "not for road use" caveat, and thus could complicate a warranty claim, but most manufacturers who retail those parts will also support their customers if there is an issue, which there almost never is. Just don't lie to the service department/manager, be honest and most of the time we will try to help.

Euro5 rules will complicate all of this. However Canada is voluntarily complying, and not all manufacturers are bothering since the US is not. Error reporting is changing, and the way we have to handle it will too.

If you are under warranty, and you are concerned something you might do, will void the warranty... don't do it. Nice and simple.

 

[Mad Mike]

I’ve done this twice, on a m80 and an fz1. Both times I ripped out the power commander as I found the factory ecu compensated fine.

unless you are looking for 1 second on a track lap, I don’t see the need to muck with factory setup.

 

[Evoex]

I’ve done this twice, on a m80 and an fz1. Both times I ripped out the power commander as I found the factory ecu compensated fine.

unless you are looking for 1 second on a track lap, I don’t see the need to muck with factory setup.

sure i'll bite;

some annoyances from the XR:

rough could start idles, bike has actually given up twice.
there's a flat spot in the rpm band where the throttle bodies close off almost completely in the midrange
disables the electronic flapper which makes the bike very quiet from stock - saves me dough for a slip on or headers

the rest (hp bump, smoother throttle, more punch, etc) are just bonus

 

[Mad Mike]

sure i'll bite;

some annoyances from the XR:

rough could start idles, bike has actually given up twice.
there's a flat spot in the rpm band where the throttle bodies close off almost completely in the midrange
disables the electronic flapper which makes the bike very quiet from stock - saves me dough for a slip on or headers

the rest (hp bump, smoother throttle, more punch, etc) are just bonus

Should have bought a jap bike.

 

[matt365]

Should have bought a jap bike.

Most new bikes have a "fuel cut" at 0 throttle for emissions. Makes the throttle snatchy. Pretty sure some can be cured with a reflash or a programmer, but not all. Altering fuel as a percentage at 0 throttle is still 0. Its a PITA with the Tuono. I'd bet BMW did something similar.

Pretty sure the Japanese 4 do it the same.



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[Evoex]

Should have bought a jap bike.

euro 5 my friend, euro 5.

 

[Mad Mike]

euro 5 my friend, euro 5.

Are u heading to Europe with your bike?

 

[Evoex]

Are u heading to Europe with your bike?

no i don't believe that's in the cards.

 

[Brian P]

The flat spot in the midrange is probably to pass a specific EPA sound test. The bike is drive-by-wire, and there is a pretty good chance that rider-requested 100% throttle position does not give commanded (at the throttle bodies) 100% actual throttle position.

No piggyback can fix stuff like that. Reflash is the only way to do it.

 

[Priller]

The ZX-10R, CBR1000RR-R, and S1000RR all need a reflash to fill in the midrange in North America, with the assumption being working around the EPA test as the cause. Comparing stock European dyno curves to North American reveals a big difference.

The problem isn't Euro 5, it's that the EPA insists on having their own standard that doesn't match, and because most of the world uses Euro regs, the EPA becomes an afterthought.

(There is something weird about Euro 5, though. As illustrated by the 'new' Hayabusa, some bikes seem to be getting significantly worse fuel economy and less power. The new Multistrada V4 has terrible fuel economy, too. I'm not an expert on emissions by any stretch, but common sense suggests that more fuel burned = more carbon dioxide released. It's definitely odd.)

 

[GreyGhost]

(There is something weird about Euro 5, though. As illustrated by the 'new' Hayabusa, some bikes seem to be getting significantly worse fuel economy and less power. The new Multistrada V4 has terrible fuel economy, too. I'm not an expert on emissions by any stretch, but common sense suggests that more fuel burned = more carbon dioxide released. It's definitely odd.)

I havent looked at bikes, but often metrics are not based on something that makes sense to you (or any reasonable person). In the US, trucks get to scale allowable emissions based on the plan area of the truck (size of its shadow). This was part of the reason for the demise of compact trucks as though they had less emissions per km than full size, they had more emissions per sq ft.