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Mapping/power commanders

So I stopped by Pro 6 Cycle earlier this evening as I was in the area.
They were kind enough to accommodate me even though I showed up at their doorstep without an appointment (Covid - appointments only at this time) - my bad.

They recommended I stay away from ECU reflashing and stick with purchasing a Power Commander unit instead (claimed that it offered more tuning options?)
Flat rate Dyno time of $400 for the day and 1 hour of labour to install the unit (I believe it just plugs into the ECU directly - no having to piggyback onto the injectors and sensors across the bike like the Rapid Bike unit does).
All in all I was looking at something around the range of $1200- $1500.

Then spoke to Champion Cycle around an hour later.
They didnt push me to use any specific product like a Power Commander and such.
Even gave me the option of purchasing a woolich license from them for $300 + a flate rate for the dyno at $500 for the day.


After reading comments on this thread I'm leaning towards an ECU reflash anyways...may as well get a quick shifter installed/programmed as well if I decide to go this route.

Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle and Champion Cycle had the same rating on Google.
Think I'll stay away from Riders Choice for something like this...

So I stopped by Pro 6 Cycle earlier this evening as I was in the area.
They were kind enough to accommodate me even though I showed up at their doorstep without an appointment (Covid - appointments only at this time) - my bad.

They recommended I stay away from ECU reflashing and stick with purchasing a Power Commander unit instead (claimed that it offered more tuning options?)
Flat rate Dyno time of $400 for the day and 1 hour of labour to install the unit (I believe it just plugs into the ECU directly - no having to piggyback onto the injectors and sensors across the bike like the Rapid Bike unit does).
All in all I was looking at something around the range of $1200- $1500.

Then spoke to Champion Cycle around an hour later.
They didnt push me to use any specific product like a Power Commander and such.
Even gave me the option of purchasing a woolich license from them for $300 + a flate rate for the dyno at $500 for the day.


After reading comments on this thread I'm leaning towards an ECU reflash anyways...may as well get a quick shifter installed/programmed as well if I decide to go this route.

Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle and Champion Cycle had the same rating on Google.
Think I'll stay away from Riders Choice for something like this...
From your later post it looks like you own a late model Z650. The PCV in this case appears to do both fuel and ignition, so it has to physically connect to not only the injectors and TPS, but also the coils.

To be honest, all the piggy back systems are very similar in their operation. The PCV does usually have finer fueling resolution (250 RPM increments) than the Bazzaz or Rapidbike, which does make it a better choice in my opinion, but you can still do a good job with all three. A shop's preference is usually based on compatibility with their dyno and it's respective tuning software. All current dynos will have live tuning software and hardware which only works with their brand of fueling module. A Dynojet 250i will allow live tuning and monitoring with a PCV, and a Bazzaz dyno will do the same with a Bazzaz ZFi, so they can do a better job a little more efficiently. This is the reason why a shop with a Dynojet dyno may charge a little more to tune a Bazzaz unit, or vice versa. You can still tune any fueling module or flashing kit on any dyno, it just takes longer without the live tuning features.

If you have the ECU flashed at any shop, without purchasing the full flash kit, (which is typically between $500-600 just for the hardware and license), then you lose the ability to make any adjustments down the line as the actual license (BIN file) is still owned by the shop, not to mention the cabling and USB converter box which only comes with the full kit. A piggy back unit will allow any owner to make changes with a laptop should they need to, or simply re-tune the bike again if they make significant changes down the line, without being committed to the same shop. This is why you see so many race bikes with both an adjustable race kit ECU and a fueling module.

One of the biggest advantages to a flash is the ability to remove Secondary Throttle Plate or Fly-by-wire restrictions in order to allow the bike to actually receive full throttle when applied; however, such restrictions typically only appear on litre bikes. As an example, you can gain significant power by de-restricting a current R1 (fueling changes will be required as well), but no such restrictions appear on the R6.
 
From your later post it looks like you own a late model Z650. The PCV in this case appears to do both fuel and ignition, so it has to physically connect to not only the injectors and TPS, but also the coils.

To be honest, all the piggy back systems are very similar in their operation. The PCV does usually have finer fueling resolution (250 RPM increments) than the Bazzaz or Rapidbike, which does make it a better choice in my opinion, but you can still do a good job with all three. A shop's preference is usually based on compatibility with their dyno and it's respective tuning software. All current dynos will have live tuning software and hardware which only works with their brand of fueling module. A Dynojet 250i will allow live tuning and monitoring with a PCV, and a Bazzaz dyno will do the same with a Bazzaz ZFi, so they can do a better job a little more efficiently. This is the reason why a shop with a Dynojet dyno may charge a little more to tune a Bazzaz unit, or vice versa. You can still tune any fueling module or flashing kit on any dyno, it just takes longer without the live tuning features.

If you have the ECU flashed at any shop, without purchasing the full flash kit, (which is typically between $500-600 just for the hardware and license), then you lose the ability to make any adjustments down the line as the actual license (BIN file) is still owned by the shop, not to mention the cabling and USB converter box which only comes with the full kit. A piggy back unit will allow any owner to make changes with a laptop should they need to, or simply re-tune the bike again if they make significant changes down the line, without being committed to the same shop. This is why you see so many race bikes with both an adjustable race kit ECU and a fueling module.

One of the biggest advantages to a flash is the ability to remove Secondary Throttle Plate or Fly-by-wire restrictions in order to allow the bike to actually receive full throttle when applied; however, such restrictions typically only appear on litre bikes. As an example, you can gain significant power by de-restricting a current R1 (fueling changes will be required as well), but no such restrictions appear on the R6.

Damn...I feel like a deer caught in headlights lol.
Didn't realize Pro 6 was on here 0.0

Thank you for the information - gives a more clearer picture now.
Rob gave me his business card - will reach out to him via email to follow up on this since no one had responded when i reached out to info@pro6cycle dot com back in Feb (figured you guys may have been busy).

Thanks again!
 
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So I ended up going with the ECU reflash at Speedlab.
I did contact Pro 6 Cycle earlier but at the time the Power Commanders were all out of stock....didnt want to delay this anymore as I had just changed the spark plugs, air filter, O2 sensor, fluids etc.

20210611_153542-jpg.123676


Ended up with 4 hp gain and cleaner AFR across the board.
At first - halfway through the dyno pulls after one of the reflashes I honestly thought the bike was going to blow up or something after hearing how much it was popping/backfiring on decel lol (these were addressed in the following reflash).




Anyways, glad this is finally done with...only next mod I can do now is to lose 20-30 pounds if I want to improve the power/weight ratio on this tiny 650cc.
Thanks for the recommendation @Evoex and @GreyGhost
Matt was a super chill guy...very patient and answered all my silly questions as well lol.
20210611_170314-jpg.123677
 
So I ended up going with the ECU reflash at Speedlab.
I did contact Pro 6 Cycle earlier but at the time the Power Commanders were all out of stock....didnt want to delay this anymore as I had just changed the spark plugs, air filter, O2 sensor, fluids etc.

20210611_153542-jpg.123676


Ended up with 4 hp gain and cleaner AFR across the board.
At first - halfway through the dyno pulls after one of the reflashes I honestly thought the bike was going to blow up or something after hearing how much it was popping/backfiring on decel lol (these were addressed in the following reflash).




Anyways, glad this is finally done with...only next mod I can do now is to lose 20-30 pounds if I want to improve the power/weight ratio on this tiny 650cc.
Thanks for the recommendation @Evoex and @GreyGhost
Matt was a super chill guy...very patient and answered all my silly questions as well lol.
20210611_170314-jpg.123677
Interesting. Thanks for posting. I wonder why he was aiming for 13.3 or 13.4 for AFR. He does it a hell of a lot more than me so he must know something. I normally aim for closer to 12.7. I don't have a dyno though (or a way to measure EGT).
 
I asked him that as well - whether 13.x was the ideal value he was seeking.
He said that as long as it was between 12-14 it should be ok...closer to 12 means a slightly richer tune iirc.
I did ask to keep my O2 sensor active as well - not sure if that contributed to this.

But this looks consistent with what others have achieved (on the Z650 forums) with just the Yoshi as well - so I'm happy.
 
Interesting. Thanks for posting. I wonder why he was aiming for 13.3 or 13.4 for AFR. He does it a hell of a lot more than me so he must know something. I normally aim for closer to 12.7. I don't have a dyno though (or a way to measure EGT).
12.7 should be the cleanest, but not necessarily where you're gonna find the most power.
Typically you'll find the most power at the cusp of lean... which may be a dangerous place to be.
This is where experience pays the bills.

You get EGT (exhaust gas temperature) with a thermocouple and EGT is USUALLY used where you would burn up O2 sensors (two strokes and diesels).
EGT go UP, yer lean. EGT go DOWN, yer RICH.
You can infer exhaust gas temps with a O2 sensor
BOTH is better, but either/or works, it's basically the same information.
 
IF that 4HP wins you races, they may be cheap.
IF the only time he sees that 4HP is on a dyno sheet, it is a TERRIFIC waste of beer drinkin' time and money
My guess is he was going more for driveability/longevity than peak hp. Besides 4 hp is a 10% bump. Butt dyno should feel that and be happy. Dollars per hp won't be great but a hell of a lot better than a lot of other bike mods.
 

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