Law Enforcement - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.....

[Moreno636]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

So the cop should wait and see if the guy is putting his hands up or taking out a weapon, then tackle?

Look, we only saw the end of the chase by which time the suspect has already slowed down enough that the cop has pretty much caught up to him. If he's giving up why isn't he showing his hands BEFORE slowing down? But even in that second of time caught on camera he kept his hands in his pockets while the linebacker wannabe gained a head of speed on him. The suspect shouldn't have run, and when he stopped he should have made it exceedingly clear that he was unarmed. The cop's only responsibility was to identify himself, other than that it looks to me like he used the least amount of force that he could at time to safely get compliance from the guy.

Of course that doesn't mean the suspect deserves to be in a coma but I'm sure the cop could put another guy in a coma like that even if he tried. It was an accident.

Absolutely wait and see what he is doing. What kind of logic is that? Just tackle everybody without giving them the chance to surrender???

Whether he ran or not isnt the point. He stopped and should be given the opportunity to surrender, and if there is a need to take him down...take him down, not plow him into a wall. Suspects last time I checked were just that suspects, not criminals. They should be given the opportunity to surrender and be taken into custody humanely. This isnt some bad 80's cop movie, everybody who runs from the cops arent doing it so they can set up an ambush with 4 of his other mob syndicate buddies.

 

[Moreno636]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Exactly.

By the way, did anyone see a weapon on the runner? Another part of the back story is that when police searched the runner's clothing, they found a screwdriver in his pocket.


That screwdriver sort of makes you go hmmmm, especially in light of a trend to screwdriver stabbing attacks. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&s...&q=stab+police+screwdriver&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

So is that why the runner chose to run from cops? Because he knew he was carrying something that could be deemed a weapon by police? maybe even because he may have used it if not in the stabbing he was originally identified as being part of, but maybe another?

That's speculation, but what is not speculation is that he ran after being witness-identified to police as a stabbing suspect. He should have stopped when challenged by police, not started a 2-1/2 block foot pursuit that only served to confirm to police that the witnesses had identified the right guy wanted for a stabbing.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHA


He just called a screwdriver a weapon!!! I have seen it all now...WOW.

This is by far the most despicable things I have ever seen you post. Not only have you placed suspicion on an innocent man (cleared by the police), but you have made it seem that the innocent man was carrying a weapon (screwdriver) by juxtaposition it to another completely unrelated set of events. Absolutely disgusting.

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Absolutely wait and see what he is doing. What kind of logic is that? Just tackle everybody without giving them the chance to surrender???

Whether he ran or not isnt the point. He stopped and should be given the opportunity to surrender, and if there is a need to take him down...take him down, not plow him into a wall. Suspects last time I checked were just that suspects, not criminals. They should be given the opportunity to surrender and be taken into custody humanely. This isnt some bad 80's cop movie, everybody who runs from the cops arent doing it so they can set up an ambush with 4 of his other mob syndicate buddies.

Great, after a 2-1/2 block foot chase after a witness-identified stabbing suspect, you want the cops to say "oh look, he might be surrendering, let's wait and see if that's what he's going to do." Well one, he wasn't "stopped" when he was tackled, and the video shows that. He was slowing, but for what reason?

Maybe he is surrendering, but why are his arms not up in the air? What if he's not surrendering? Then all you've done is give the runner a chance to position himself into a defensive posture, maybe set up for an attack on the cop, and pull a weapon during the pause in action. Now you've lost all tactical advantage of surprise. No, safest course for the cop is to tackle the suspect while there is still a relatively clear opening to do so and thus quickly end the situation.

This guy was given an opportunity to surrender when police first approached him. Instead he chose to obscure his face with a hoodie and ran. He made his choice, and that more than anything else played the largest part in the eventual outcome.

 

[Moreno636]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Great, after a 2-1/2 block foot chase after a witness-identified stabbing suspect, you want the cops to say "oh look, he might be surrendering, let's wait and see if that's what he's going to do." Well one, he wasn't "stopped" when he was tackled, and the video shows that. He was slowing, but for what reason?

Maybe he is surrendering, but why are his arms not up in the air? What if he's not surrendering? Then all you've done is give the runner a chance to position himself into a defensive posture, maybe set up for an attack on the cop, and pull a weapon during the pause in action. Now you've lost all tactical advantage of surprise. No, safest course for the cop is to tackle the suspect while there is still a relatively clear opening to do so and thus quickly end the situation.

This guy was given an opportunity to surrender when police first approached him. Instead he chose to obscure his face with a hoodie and ran. He made his choice, and that more than anything else played the largest part in the eventual outcome.

You can try and twist the story to fit your delusion, but it doesnt work on me. I saw the video, putting aside the fact that he was innocent, the fact that there is evidence that the cops didnt identify themselves and that he didnt assault the officers. Even if he did run, he has the opportunity to surrender. The POS didnt give him the opportunity to surrender.

Secondly he is an innocent person, he can do whatever the hell he wants whenever he wants. That includes pulling a hood over his face. Despite what your twisted little mind believes, being a cop doesnt give you licence to assault people based on some woman's "hearsay".

 

[inreb]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

While we're speculating.....maybe he ran because he knows what cops do to innocent people. Him being innocent, he's got lot's to fear. His judgement, in the final analysis, proved bang on.

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHA

He just called a screwdriver a weapon!!! I have seen it all now...WOW.

Refer to this link again. It sure seems like a lot of people are using screwdrivers as a street carry-weapon these days. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=D0k&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=stab+police+screwdriver&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= It's just an interesting coincidence that a suspect who ran from police investigating a stabbing just happened to be carrying something that is more and more being used a quasi-legal street carry-weapon.

This is by far the most despicable things I have ever seen you post. Not only have you placed suspicion on an innocent man (cleared by the police), but you have made it seem that the innocent man was carrying a weapon (screwdriver) by juxtaposition it to another completely unrelated set of events. Absolutely disgusting.

Poor baby. That "innocent" man amplified suspicion by running. Why did he run? His act of running from police in itself arguably constituted the additional felony of resisting arrest. http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/11/appeals_court_y.html

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

You can try and twist the story to fit your delusion, but it doesnt work on me. I saw the video, putting aside the fact that he was innocent, the fact that there is evidence that the cops didnt identify themselves and that he didnt assault the officers. Even if he did run, he has the opportunity to surrender. The POS didnt give him the opportunity to surrender.

There is plenty of evidence that police did in fact identify themselves right from the start. Let me refresh your memory - "Urquhart said investigators don't know why Harris ran, but they noted that four witnesses, including the woman who misidentified Harris, said they heard the deputies repeatedly yell "stop, police" or "police officers. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009249844_copchase22m.html ". He did not surrender at that point, and when he was finally tackled he still had not stopped running or put his hands in the air.

Secondly he is an innocent person, he can do whatever the hell he wants whenever he wants. That includes pulling a hood over his face. Despite what your twisted little mind believes, being a cop doesnt give you licence to assault people based on some woman's "hearsay".

His "innocence" ended the moment he disobeyed lawful police orders to stop. Like it or not, police do have the right to use force on resisting or fleeing suspects. That woman's identification was not "hearsay". It was direct say - she personally pointed out the suspect to police as having just been involved in a stabbing attack on another. By any measure that is a serious crime that we expect police to promptly deal with.

That witness identification gave police probable cause and the right to detain the stabbing suspect using whatever force was required. Even if there later turned out to be an error in witness identification, the time to deal with that was through the legal system and not by initiating a protracted foot pursuit with cops who quite reasonably believed you to be an armed and dangerous stabbing suspect.

 

[ToSlow]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

There is plenty of evidence that police did in fact identify themselves right from the start. Let me refresh your memory - "Urquhart said investigators don't know why Harris ran, but they noted that four witnesses, including the woman who misidentified Harris, said they heard the deputies repeatedly yell "stop, police" or "police officers. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009249844_copchase22m.html ". He did not surrender at that point, and when he was finally tackled he still had not stopped running or put his hands in the air.




His "innocence" ended the moment he disobeyed lawful police orders to stop. Like it or not, police do have the right to use force on resisting or fleeing suspects. That woman's identification was not "hearsay". It was direct say - she personally pointed out the suspect to police as having just been involved in a stabbing attack on another. By any measure that is a serious crime that we expect police to promptly deal with.

That witness identification gave police probable cause and the right to detain the stabbing suspect using whatever force was required. Even if there later turned out to be an error in witness identification, the time to deal with that is through the legal system.

i thought there was also a post here that the witnesses said the cops didn't identify themselfs

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

i thought there was also a post here that the people said the cops didn't identify themselfs

It's quite possible that some people along the foot pursuit route didn't hear it. The chase lasted 2-1/2 blocks. However, according to witnesses the police did in fact identify themselves, including at the very start when they first saw the suspect.

"One of the women led the deputies to Blanchard Street, between Second and Third avenues, and when Harris appeared across the street, she identified him as being involved in the assault, Urquhart said.

The deputies reported that Harris had a look in his eyes as if he were going to run, and then pulled a hood up over his head and took off, Urquhart said.

The deputies shouted for him to stop, identifying themselves as police, Urquhart said.

Detectives later determined Harris was not part of the bar altercation; those involved were never found.

Urquhart said investigators don't know why Harris ran, but they noted that four witnesses, including the woman who misidentified Harris, said they heard the deputies repeatedly yell "stop, police" or "police officers." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009249844_copchase22m.html

 

[AdRath]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

i thought there was also a post here that the witnesses said the cops didn't identify themselfs

Also were the witnesses closer to the officer or to the suspect. Because others heard them identify doesn't guarantee that the person heard and didn't just see some large men in black running towards him. I guess that is why police wear uniforms so visual identification. These officers didn't look like they were wearing uniforms.

Lets just hope police don't start shooting people who are identified by a single person (who was wrong). I personally think the person who pointed out the guy shares a massive portion of blame in this fiasco. She obviously didn't get it right and wasn't that sure. Its low rent witnesses like these that get the wrong people put in jail after being identified in a lineup.

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Also were the witnesses closer to the officer or to the suspect. Because others heard them identify doesn't guarantee that the person heard and didn't just see some large men in black running towards him. I guess that is why police wear uniforms so visual identification. These officers didn't look like they were wearing uniforms.

You can see the cops involved on a youtube video that include surveillance video from a store at the start of the chase. The cops were wearing short sleeve black uniform shirts, duty belts, gun holster on their hips, and their police badge pinned to their shirts in the usual place on the upper left chest area. They were clearly identifiable police officers.

Lets just hope police don't start shooting people who are identified by a single person (who was wrong). I personally think the person who pointed out the guy shares a massive portion of blame in this fiasco. She obviously didn't get it right and wasn't that sure. Its low rent witnesses like these that get the wrong people put in jail after being identified in a lineup.

Well, police didn't start shooting in this case, did they? They still had a duty to investigate the person being pointed out, and to do that they first had to apprehend him. The tackle should have been a reasonably non-lethal way to gain control over the suspect, but sometimes things go wrong. Ultimately, the tackle was the end result of the choice of the suspect to run from police.

 

[AdRath]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

You can see the cops involved on a youtube video that include surveillance video from a store at the start of the chase. The cops were wearing short sleeve black uniform shirts, duty belts, gun holster on their hips, and their police badge pinned to their shirts in the usual place on the upper left chest area. They were clearly identifiable police officers.

Then I have no idea why he ran from police. In the one surveillance video I saw it looked like a plain clothes but a shortsleeve uniform would look like that. Didn't see a belt.

Well, police didn't start shooting in this case, did they? They still had a duty to investigate the person being pointed out, and to do that they first had to apprehend him. The tackle should have been a reasonably non-lethal way to gain control over the suspect, but sometimes things go wrong. Ultimately, the tackle was the end result of the choice of the suspect to run from police.

A tackle would have been a better move then a shove which is what happened. If the officer had of tackled him to restrain the officer would have ended up in the wall also. Wonder if the officer being aware of the wall changed his mind and led to shoving someone as hard as he could into the cement wall as opposed to tackling him to the ground to restrain.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Harris had been mistakenly identified by a witness as part of a group that shortly beforehand had been involved in a stabbing. Paul and another deputy then saw Harris from across the street with three of his friends, and at that point people's stories begin to differ. The deputies shouted--something; they later said they had identified themselves as police, but least one witness says they didn't.
In any case, Harris took off running and the deputies gave chase.

"One of the women led the deputies to Blanchard Street, between Second and Third avenues, and when Harris appeared across the street, she identified him as being involved in the assault, Urquhart said.

The deputies reported that Harris had a look in his eyes as if he were going to run, and then pulled a hood up over his head and took off, Urquhart said.

The deputies shouted for him to stop, identifying themselves as police, Urquhart said.

Detectives later determined Harris was not part of the bar altercation; those involved were never found.

Urquhart said investigators don't know why Harris ran, but they noted that four witnesses, including the woman who misidentified Harris, said they heard the deputies repeatedly yell "stop, police" or "police officers." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...pchase22m.html

By the end of the week you'll have a quote from someone saying he had a gun in his hand.

 

[Moreno636]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Refer to this link again. It sure seems like a lot of people are using screwdrivers as a street carry-weapon these days. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=D0k&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=stab+police+screwdriver&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= It's just an interesting coincidence that a suspect who ran from police investigating a stabbing just happened to be carrying something that is more and more being used a quasi-legal street carry-weapon.

What a bunch of bullsh.t...two incidents in one year? WTF is this supposed to represent? How is this trend? You are a liar and worse you use lies to make some fictions point. Once again what you did there was despicable and disgusting. I suppose fork crime is also on the rise huh?

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stab+police+fork&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Poor baby. That "innocent" man amplified suspicion by running. Why did he run? His act of running from police in itself arguably constituted the additional felony of resisting arrest. http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/11/appeals_court_y.html

Again a bunch of bullsh.t, what happens in Mass doesnt mean that it applies to what happens in Seattle. So stop with the bullsh.t. Also in that particular case the reason he was charged was because of the circumstances the police officers were in due to the chase ie; late at night, a high fence over a ledge. These factors contributed to the ruling. NOT THE FACT THAT HE CHOSE TO RUN

 

[promac]

Re: Suicide by cop

It just goes to show how armed individuals can twart a mass shooting attempt. So much for the argument that these nut-jobs never target police stations.

Could be some anti-gun nut martyring himself in order to push a ban on guns.

 

[promac]

Re: Man faces jail after protecting home from masked attackers

The neighbor had already been convicted and sentenced to 0 days in jail for uttering threats. In any case, the victim was most likely a collector. One gun is more than enough for protection.

Seven guns would be hardly adequate to form a collection and a meager number for a seasoned target shooter. Three guns would be adequate for home defence - a shotgun for inside the house, a rifle for outside use and a handgun as backup and close quarter defence.

I believe the article says the victim was a firearms instructor and target shooter. Anyway, a firearms instructor would need at the very least a pump action shotgun, break action shotgun, a lever action rifle, a bolt action rifle, a semi-automatic rifle, a revolver and a semi-automatic handgun to familiarize students with safe handling of the different types of firearms.

 

[promac]

Re: Man faces jail after protecting home from masked attackers

+ 1 on the lack of police protection, IMHO the police are there to clean up the mess. They can't be everywhere, nor are they efficient which is why we as citizens need to emphasize our fundamental right to protect ourselves and laws need to reflect who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

Police are merely here to enforce laws and bring offenders to justice after the fact. They have no legal obligation to defend or protect you.

 

[mungo]

Re: Overcriminalization

I have long said that for every new law to be placed on the books, an old one ought to be removed. For every additional restriction, an equivalent one elsewhere should be equivalently loosened. For every additional piece of paper that someone has to fill out or comply with, an equivalent other one ought to be removed. "No more regulatory burden"

I fully realize that it's never going to happen.

How about this: Every new law must clearly define what it is meant to accomplish, describe how those accomplishment will be measured and be removed if it does not meet its goal.

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

What a bunch of bullsh.t...two incidents in one year? WTF is this supposed to represent? How is this trend? You are a liar and worse you use lies to make some fictions point. Once again what you did there was despicable and disgusting.

Just two incident in a year? I guess that shows you are unable to read. That's what's really sad - that someone could be so willfully illiterate in this day and age.

I suppose fork crime is also on the rise huh?
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stab+police+fork&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Interesting that you brought up forks. Did you bother to read any of the "fork crime" incidents? Most of them appear to occur in the home, in other words forks used as weapons because they happened to be easily at hand in a heat of a moment argument in the home setting.

On the other hand, the links of screwdriver stabbings show most screwdriver attacks committed away from the home or workshop, as part of street crime in places where one would not ordinarily expect to have a ready supply of screwdrivers. That suggests a certain degree of premeditation in choosing to carry the screwdriver away from its ordinary place of use. Why would someone carry a screwdriver when going out bar-hopping? To help fix the beer taps?

Again a bunch of bullsh.t, what happens in Mass doesnt mean that it applies to what happens in Seattle. So stop with the bullsh.t. Also in that particular case the reason he was charged was because of the circumstances the police officers were in due to the chase ie; late at night, a high fence over a ledge. These factors contributed to the ruling. NOT THE FACT THAT HE CHOSE TO RUN

You have got to be kidding. The running was what exposed the cops to the potential dangers. In any case have look around. Running on foot after being ordered to stop by police is considered actively resisting arrest in most states. People have been charged and convicted for doing so in Ontario as well.

 

[turbodish]

Re: Innocent Man In Coma After 'Hard Shove' By Police Officer

Then I have no idea why he ran from police. In the one surveillance video I saw it looked like a plain clothes but a shortsleeve uniform would look like that. Didn't see a belt.

The tackle video is grainy but you can see gear protruding from the cop's belt when he is bent over the suspect. Also, in this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyrL6PKYCug around the 1:18 point you can see the cops immediately before the foot pursuit started and you can see the witness pointing the cops to a suspect. Even in that side camera shot you can see the badges on the front of their shirts and the police crest on their sleeve shoulder.

A tackle would have been a better move then a shove which is what happened. If the officer had of tackled him to restrain the officer would have ended up in the wall also. Wonder if the officer being aware of the wall changed his mind and led to shoving someone as hard as he could into the cement wall as opposed to tackling him to the ground to restrain.

If the cop had tackled the runner, then the cop would have potentially been rolling around on the ground in a grappling match with the suspect. Tactically, using a good solid hit to knock the wind out of the suspect and drop him to the ground would seem to be the better choice as far as the cop's safety is concerned.