Would be nice if JT was equitable and had been calling Couillard and Legault multiple times over the past few years.
He only seems to have problems with Ontario.
I think the irony is over his head.
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JT's not the only one handing out free money...
- Thread starter mimico_polak
- Start date
He only seems to have problems with Ontario.
I think the irony is over his head.
Never gonna happen. Need to use the kids as bargaining chips. Otherwise the ‘strike’ would go all summer as there’s no major consequence to having it.
I’m typically against this type of labour action, but from what I’ve read the CUPE members have gotten the shaft for a decade or more.
A lot of these EAs are dealing with literally the weakest in our society and should be commanded for it.
Unless I’m missing something major, they do deserve a raise. But maybe there’s more here than I’m aware of.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Here are some of the wages from the current CUPE CBA. The CUPE data comes from their latest collective agreement, the Market Data comes from the Gov't of Canada Labour Market Survey for Ontario (Library Page in Canada | Wages).
Notes:
- CUPE values do not include the value of benefits. The OMERS benefit = 10.5% of the employee wage. Employment health/insurance/dental benefits are worth another $6000+/year.
- CUPE wage averages are included in the Market rate, therefor where the CUPE rate is higher, the real market rate is lower.
- Approx 75% of the private sector employees are not covered by an employer-paid pension or health care benefit plan.
| CUPE | Market | ||||
| Secretary | Hourly | Annual | Hourly | Annual | CUPE Advantage |
| Attendance Officer | $31.15 | $62,300.00 | $21.43 | $42,860 | 31% |
| Accounting Clerk | $28.19 | $56,380.00 | $22.50 | $45,000 | 20% |
| Payroll Clerk | $28.19 | $56,380.00 | $26.44 | $52,880 | 6% |
| General Clerk | $19.79 | $39,580.00 | $18.27 | $36,540 | 8% |
| Secretary to Principal | $28.19 | $56,380.00 | $24.88 | $49,760 | 12% |
| Secretary | $25.34 | $50,680.00 | $24.88 | $49,760 | 2% |
| Educational Assistant | $26.74 | $53,480.00 | $23.40 | $46,800 | 12% |
| Custodian | $25.34 | $50,680.00 | $17.53 | $35,060 | 31% |
| Receptionist | $21.29 | $42,580.00 | $17.95 | $35,900 | 16% |
| Early Childhood Educator (4 yrs exp) | $28.58 | $57,160.00 | $20.00 | $40,000 | 30% |
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On a related note, opseu can go f themselves. They are having a sympathy strike with less than 24 hours notice even though their contract is not up for negotiation. I hope douggie fines them for everything he can. Cupe may be violating law but they have always been clear they were going to and gave people time to plan.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
That's the case for virtually every PSU. Another key point to remember is the generous benefit plans - while they might not be required for everyone (i.e. spouse has benefits).
Most CUPE educational workers do not have high educational requirements, Grade 12 for most. Some, like ECE, Network Tech, might require 1-2 years of community college. A quick check of common recruiting sites doesn't show many openings, which in a tight labor market indicates there are lots of people willing to do these CUPE jobs.
WTF is a sympathy strike? How's this poo legal. FML.
FAIL on hourly to annual!
Teachers get paid 10 months over 12 months, they are paid for 10 months work spread over 12. But we are not talking teachers here....
Most CUPE school workers (with a few exceptions like custodians and a few others that work during the summer) get paid 10 months over 10 so it is not a simpleton hourly to annual ratio like the above (1:2000). We can go on about the philosophical of 10 over 12, eight weeks unpaid vacation, education haters gonna hate type stuff, paid too much, paid not enough, etc. but the chart is a fail in ratio, I assume put together either not understanding or worse yet understanding and purposely misleading?
Ratio for most that are not year around is closer to 1:1666 give or take. Or about 17% lower than the chart.
As for pension, public sector is not like private. In private where defined benefit is still in place the employee usually pays chump change and the employer pays a very high percentage (last one I was in was roughly 15% by me and 85% by employer and would have paid out similar to OMERS etc.) or it is a straight up to big too fail ponzi. In the public sector for Ontario at least it is generally 10 to 11% of the gross pay goes to the pension. Government matches 1:1 (50/50) contribution. That match 1:1 is common for modern defined contribution plans BTW....
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I agree that raises for many are needed. I also agree that they need to be legislated to work due to the education that Ontario students have gotten through the pandemic and the strikes leading up to it.
Kathleen Wynn legislated teachers, postal workers, power workers back to work but I think that they were still able to bargain while back to work. I don't agree with Doug imposing a contract. Police unions, nurse unions, etc have to negotiate without the threat of strike and at this point I think that the most important thing is keeping kids in school.
Not obeying back to work legislation is a slippery slope that I would hate to see become a trend.
Kathleen Wynn legislated teachers, postal workers, power workers back to work but I think that they were still able to bargain while back to work. I don't agree with Doug imposing a contract. Police unions, nurse unions, etc have to negotiate without the threat of strike and at this point I think that the most important thing is keeping kids in school.
Not obeying back to work legislation is a slippery slope that I would hate to see become a trend.
Let's remember whose driving this bus. Stephen Lecce got a $15,000 raise in 2020 (cause like who could live on 150K) and voted for a 20% increase in his housing allowance in 2019. That 20% increase was for anyone living more than 50km away. How many regular folks have a 50km plus commute? Just saying.....
www.ontariosunshinelist.com
Stephen Lecce Salary at Legislative Assembly | Ontario Sunshine List
Salary history for Stephen Lecce, Minister, Education at Legislative Assembly from Ontario's sunshine list
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I don't find that to be obscene. I'm never a fan of politicians giving themselves raises but I wouldn't take that job for $150,000. He's an MP and cabinet minister. Probably the most high profile AND hated cabinet minister. If he's got it so good then why doesn't your wife become an Education Minister?Let's remember whose driving this bus. Stephen Lecce got a $15,000 raise in 2020 (cause like who could live on 150K) and voted for a 20% increase in his housing allowance in 2019. That 20% increase was for anyone living more than 50km away. How many regular folks have a 50km plus commute? Just saying.....
Stephen Lecce Salary at Legislative Assembly | Ontario Sunshine List
Salary history for Stephen Lecce, Minister, Education at Legislative Assembly from Ontario's sunshine list
The lack of available jobs in the market (and waiting lists for some) says people are ok with that.
Like literally everywhere else these days (great resignation, retirement) there is actually a shortage of workers for these specific jobs and it is getting worse. They are no different.
But to be fair, the pay issues have been this way forever and it was once like you noted, Doug and team did not create the historic pay problem here. But his approach to not dealing with it is, lets say unique....
Mad Mike
Well-known member
OK, but remember many take the summer off and collect Pogie. Given the job market in Ontario can pick up work doing the same thing in the private sector and still be ahead. They are not strapped to a chair with a work prohibition for the 2 mos off -- if they choose not to work you would compare them to a private sector worker who decided on 2 mos of unpaid summer leave.
The argument might be different if the unemployment rate was above the number of people not wanting to work -- hasn't been like that in Ontario for a long time.
3.2million gov't workers (and growing) have defined benefit pension plans, 1.2m private sector workers (and shrinking) have these generous plans. When you consider about 20% of the workforce is gov't, the other 75% are paying for that benefit, few not receiving it themselves. Also know that OMERs is considerably more generous than most private sector plans... I haven't seen a private sector pension that offers unreduced benefits after 20 years of service.
As far as matching goes, most private sector workers are lucky to see employers match the first $500 of their defined contributions (RRSP), CUPE folks get on average $5000/annum.
There is no way, no how you can forge an argument that Ontario education workers make less than their private sector counterparts.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
That could be the case as there is no certification requirement for EAs in Ontario schools. Some could be employed under contract, or as casual workers as lunch, hall or playground monitors. My retired neighbor did this at a local grade school, he was called an EA, he supervised the lunch room for 2 hrs a day at $16/hr -- gave him something to do.
Full time EA's doing EA work are paid the CBA wage shown in the table. They earn about 30% more than market rates in the daycare or private school sectors. They also get a pension & benefits package worth more than $10K a year, something rare in the private sector.
Did I say they make less, just that what you posted is way off and took a way over simplified 1:2000 ratio, the creator did this either on purpose or by not understanding the math.
And again on pension, for at least Ontario public sector employee contribution to pension is 10 to 11% of gross pay matched by the employer. The overall employee contribution is extremely uncommon in the private sector. People can be mad about this or not but at least understand how it works....
RRSP match IS NOT a pension it is an RRSP match. Defined contribution IS a pension plan.... separate items, and many companies do both BTW.
This is literally the same for every Canadian other then the Weston's. If everyone gets raises to match inflation then inflation gets worse as the supply/demand issues remain. If there is a recession do you think they'll take a pay cut? I certainly am not expecting a 10% raise this year.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
The ratios are there to normalize a comparison.
If it annoys you, ignore the annual, use just the hourly rates -- the CUPE uplift remains the same.
OMERS members do make a contribution that is higher than comparable private defined benefit plans. But remember, not many private sector workers get a defined benefit pension anyway -- and none are as generous as OMERS. Roughly speaking I'd contributed 10% of my comp into top-up my TD plan (a rare gem of a plan in the Public sector), to make it close to OMERS. I had to go 35 years (vs 30) and there was no indexing to inflation once it started paying out.
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