Is Tuition Really THAT Unreasonable in Ontario?

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knowledge said:
So since you and some people get motion sickness ('cause you know, it's very rare for people to read any type of book on public transportation, even though plenty of people actually do this), it's not viable? Got it.

Why do you always seem to take discussions so personally? Is there really any reason to start insulting me? I'm sure statistics have shown that everyone is a literal representation of what their alias is. Hurp derp go change your screen name, I highly doubt you're a caboose that people sleep and have meals in :rolleyes: (or whatever other definition you might have had in mind when you picked it). Anyways...it looks like this discussion's done. Thanks for your input, everyone (and yours until the last post).


Not for uni jobs. 1500's a really convenient number to pull out of your *** when making a reductio ad absurdum argument. I'd say that on-campus jobs are sort of a hidden gem. Everyone knows about them, but people always try applying close to home, at a mall, etc. before trying for these ones. As a result, they're also less competitive. I'm not sure if he's ever applied for a uni job but they have a financial process for application that weeds out a lot of people.
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So many things you write make me believe you are obtuse, willfully ignorant, or you simply have no idea how the real world actually works.
 
Flashmonkey said:
Don't be sorry. It's true. :p

U of T's a horrible place to be LOL.

As a graduate of their engineering program, I can tell you right now that it's a cut-throat environment in there, and I don't see how anybody would be able to work a job that pays enough to cover tuition/books/food/etc., while maintaining the ludicrous workload and pressure that you're put under. Half of the TA's don't speak english and a good 2/3rds of the profs couldn't teach their way out of a paper hat. And I'm not even going to get into how inadequate my high school education was in preparing me for the material being covered in my first year of classes.

All that crap aside, I think part of the problem is that we've fostered a society that now demands a minimum of a university diploma in something. University is expensive and always has been. IMO, what's unfair is expecting that EVERYBODY needs to have a university eductaion in order to get work. That's just stupid and unsustainable in the long run.

Anyway, here's a related cracked.com article on the matter. It's pretty well written: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/
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Funny thing; a lot of university graduates seem to be going back to community college, to get a diploma in something more immediately useful. I graduated from a community college and, after seeing some of the debt loads of people who come out of the university system, I'd be embarrassed to say what my final year's tuition was.

Not everyone is suited to a university education. Not everyone NEEDS a university education. If you're of the mindset that can benefit from that form of education then by all means, go to university. If you aren't, then don't waste your time and money. Not everyone is going to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer..... We need people with actual nuts & bolts skills too. Someone has to keep things working for all those university grads who can't screw in a light bulb, or balance a cheque book (an exaggeration, but sometimes I think not by much). I wanted to be an engineer, had the grades and ability, but not the financial wherewithal. Something about having to work, to help support my family, at the time.

Not everyone is suited to a community college education, either. There were three people in my first year class, who shouldn't have been there, and it was painfully obvious. They struggled every step of the way. They dropped down to the two year programme, from the three year. One of them took 5 years, to not graduate. Politics at work.

There's nothing wrong with a trade. I had an opportunity to apprentice as a machinist, when I came out of college. After winning academic awards in high school and college I was damned-well going to use what I'd learnt, and it had been drilled into my head (in school) that the earning potential of a new grad, in my field, was damned high. It was a mistake, from a financial standpoint. There are good jobs to be had, for people with skill. People are needed in manufacturing, construction, etc.
 
knowledge said:
So since you and some people get motion sickness ('cause you know, it's very rare for people to read any type of book on public transportation, even though plenty of people actually do this), it's not viable? Got it.

Why do you always seem to take discussions so personally? Is there really any reason to start insulting me? I'm sure statistics have shown that everyone is a literal representation of what their alias is. Hurp derp go change your screen name, I highly doubt you're a caboose that people sleep and have meals in :rolleyes: (or whatever other definition you might have had in mind when you picked it). Anyways...it looks like this discussion's done. Thanks for your input, everyone (and yours until the last post).


Not for uni jobs. 1500's a really convenient number to pull out of your *** when making a reductio ad absurdum argument. I'd say that on-campus jobs are sort of a hidden gem. Everyone knows about them, but people always try applying close to home, at a mall, etc. before trying for these ones. As a result, they're also less competitive. I'm not sure if he's ever applied for a uni job but they have a financial process for application that weeds out a lot of people.

I've suggested a bunch of my co-workers at a job to apply for jobs at their uni when their hours got cut and a whole bunch of them got in. None of them had relevant experience. But I'm willing to grant that luck/timing could definitely be a possibility. It's just a bit weird that all 3 Toronto universities hired the average person like that, no? I also only recommended it because I have other buddies working on-campus at universities across the province.

For a lot of part-time jobs, I've skipped the queue by asking when the manager's working, coming back when they're working, politely asking if I could have a second of their time, handing them my resume, then shaking their hand. It's worked so much better than applying online and I didn't need a hook up to get in. I'm sure it's much harder for full-time positions and real jobs, but that isn't what's being discussed.
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I must ask, what are you studying?
My program was considered an overload program.....most did not work part time for that reason. Since then they have reduced the courseload is my understanding.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Funny thing; a lot of university graduates seem to be going back to community college, to get a diploma in something more immediately useful. I graduated from a community college and, after seeing some of the debt loads of people who come out of the university system, I'd be embarrassed to say what my final year's tuition was.
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I was really close to signing up for an automotive technican course instead. My two choices at the time were mechanical engineering or auto mechanic. My dad was a millwright so I had nothing but respect for blue collar work. After thinking it over and discussing it a few times with my parents, I decided to go the white collar route. First one in the family to go to university and all that stuff. I don't necessarily regret it, but I often wonder what my life would've been like had I gone the college route.

I'd probably have more money and less white hair. Even though my parents paid my tuition, I still managed to incur a crap load of debt during school due to books, transport costs, food, etc. Coming out of school with debt like that puts you at a HUGE disadvantage and sets you back a few years. And people wonder why there's a rise in kids staying at home until their 30's.
 
Flashmonkey said:
I was really close to signing up for an automotive technican course instead. My two choices at the time were mechanical engineering or auto mechanic. My dad was a millwright so I had nothing but respect for blue collar work. After thinking it over and discussing it a few times with my parents, I decided to go the white collar route. First one in the family to go to university and all that stuff. I don't necessarily regret it, but I often wonder what my life would've been like had I gone the college route.

I'd probably have more money and less white hair. Even though my parents paid my tuition, I still managed to incur a crap load of debt during school due to books, transport costs, food, etc. Coming out of school with debt like that puts you at a HUGE disadvantage and sets you back a few years. And people wonder why there's a rise in kids staying at home until their 30's.
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By comparison my student loans bought me my first bike (a 250cc Honda scooter) as transportation to and from school, and were paid off less than 2 years after graduation. It was community college, of course, but I did that while making dirt ($14K/yr). It was also in the late '80s.
 
If you guys are arguing over on campus jobs - geez, those were easier to get than a prayer from a nun. It was 3 step process for me back in the day:

1. Go to tuition office, prove you needed the money (ie, show your tuition receipt).

2. Get put into a remedial job that required zero effort, could be used to study while doing it, all while getting paid. I actually had TWO jobs, one for a Native Center at UWO, the other filing receipts for some admin BS office on campus.

3. Show up for your job - a prerequisite I didn't meet for long at the Native Center, where I was unceremoniously let go. IE, they cancelled my door access card one day, so I figured I was fired and didn't come back. Good times.
 
estone said:
If you guys are arguing over on campus jobs - geez, those were easier to get than a prayer from a nun. It was 3 step process for me back in the day:
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They were the most sought after, yet hardest to get jobs on my campus.
 
REALLY?? What campus?

All you had to do was show 'financial need' and they'd find you a job at Western when I was there (2000 - 2004).
 
estone said:
REALLY?? What campus?

All you had to do was show 'financial need' and they'd find you a job at Western when I was there (2000 - 2004).
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University of Victoria.
 
Flashmonkey said:
I was really close to signing up for an automotive technican course instead. My two choices at the time were mechanical engineering or auto mechanic. My dad was a millwright so I had nothing but respect for blue collar work. After thinking it over and discussing it a few times with my parents, I decided to go the white collar route. First one in the family to go to university and all that stuff. I don't necessarily regret it, but I often wonder what my life would've been like had I gone the college route.

I'd probably have more money and less white hair. Even though my parents paid my tuition, I still managed to incur a crap load of debt during school due to books, transport costs, food, etc. Coming out of school with debt like that puts you at a HUGE disadvantage and sets you back a few years. And people wonder why there's a rise in kids staying at home until their 30's.
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an auto tech making more than an engineer? I'm sure it happens but Does a tech at Ford make as much as a Ford Engineer? I doubt it.
 
murf said:
an auto tech making more than an engineer? I'm sure it happens but Does a tech at Ford make as much as a Ford Engineer? I doubt it.
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It depends...but if you're talkin hourly then ya haha. Those engineers don't go home.

Being an engineer in automotive sucks unless you land a sweet design job. Probably not the best example for engineering. Closest comparison is consulting...and if you're on the bottom rung (and i am....) then a tech could easily out shine you in pay. Not saying that would be the case all the time or over the long term...but it does depend heavily on the firm you work for.

Other high paying engineering jobs usually involve ungodly amounts of hours and travel...and/or require you to live way outside of the city. Definitely not for everyone.
 
Flashmonkey said:
It depends...but if you're talkin hourly then ya haha. Those engineers don't go home.

Being an engineer in automotive sucks unless you land a sweet design job. Probably not the best example for engineering. Closest comparison is consulting...and if you're on the bottom rung (and i am....) then a tech could easily out shine you in pay. Not saying that would be the case all the time or over the long term...but it does depend heavily on the firm you work for.

Other high paying engineering jobs usually involve ungodly amounts of hours and travel...and/or require you to live way outside of the city. Definitely not for everyone.
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I worked regular hours at Bombardier, GM, and GE.
 
I didn't read the OP's post; but, no. I have a bro in the states in high school on a scholarship. It's private, but, it's not even a university; and parents down there are paying, I **** you not, $40000+ on tuition a year. That includes living expenses, books, food, but, jeez. For a top 40 private university in the US, you can spend $160 000+ for a 4 year program. In ON higher edu. is subsidized, it's not that bad.
 
estone said:
If you guys are arguing over on campus jobs - geez, those were easier to get than a prayer from a nun. It was 3 step process for me back in the day:

1. Go to tuition office, prove you needed the money (ie, show your tuition receipt).

2. Get put into a remedial job that required zero effort, could be used to study while doing it, all while getting paid. I actually had TWO jobs, one for a Native Center at UWO, the other filing receipts for some admin BS office on campus.

3. Show up for your job - a prerequisite I didn't meet for long at the Native Center, where I was unceremoniously let go. IE, they cancelled my door access card one day, so I figured I was fired and didn't come back. Good times.
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Oh, you must be "obtuse", willfully ignornant, and have no idea how the real world works, too. 'Cause Caboose never applied for a job there, so it can't be possible to get one!!!!!111oneoneone (& CrazyKell, I know very few people at U of V, so this definitely isn't directed at how hard it might be to get a campus job out-of-province)

Murf, I'm doing a double in Philosophy & Psych. It's probably not as challenging as engineering and a lot of the sciences - it's just a lot of reading/making notes to get through on a weekly basis (with a ****-ton of essays in Philosophy and a ****-ton of quizzes/tests in Psych).

I've suggested polyphasic sleeping to a bunch of my friends who were having trouble balancing a part-time job with the more intense programs and a lot of them are now able to balance things a lot better. So again, there's another factor we can actually control. This is also better for studying because your brain gets to rest a couple of times a day before you start studying (as opposed to sleeping once, going to class, going to work, then trying to study at the end of the day when you're tired as hell). Posted wirelessly from a library at University that I don't even go to :D lol
 
knowledge said:
Oh, you must be "obtuse", willfully ignornant, and have no idea how the real world works, too. 'Cause Caboose never applied for a job there, so it can't be possible to get one!!!!!111oneoneone (& CrazyKell, I know very few people at U of V, so this definitely isn't directed at how hard it might be to get a campus job out-of-province)

Murf, I'm doing a double in Philosophy & Psych. It's probably not as challenging as engineering and a lot of the sciences - it's just a lot of reading/making notes to get through on a weekly basis (with a ****-ton of essays in Philosophy and a ****-ton of quizzes/tests in Psych).

I've suggested polyphasic sleeping to a bunch of my friends who were having trouble balancing a part-time job with the more intense programs and a lot of them are now able to balance things a lot better. So again, there's another factor we can actually control. This is also better for studying because your brain gets to rest a couple of times a day before you start studying (as opposed to sleeping once, going to class, going to work, then trying to study at the end of the day when you're tired as hell). Posted wirelessly from a library at University that I don't even go to :D lol
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That explains quite a bit.

Good luck with your program and I hope 6-8 years from now you can look back and see just how right you are about everything.

All the best.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Funny thing; a lot of university graduates seem to be going back to community college, to get a diploma in something more immediately useful. I graduated from a community college and, after seeing some of the debt loads of people who come out of the university system, I'd be embarrassed to say what my final year's tuition was.

Not everyone is suited to a university education. Not everyone NEEDS a university education. If you're of the mindset that can benefit from that form of education then by all means, go to university. If you aren't, then don't waste your time and money. Not everyone is going to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer..... We need people with actual nuts & bolts skills too. Someone has to keep things working for all those university grads who can't screw in a light bulb, or balance a cheque book (an exaggeration, but sometimes I think not by much). I wanted to be an engineer, had the grades and ability, but not the financial wherewithal. Something about having to work, to help support my family, at the time.

Not everyone is suited to a community college education, either. There were three people in my first year class, who shouldn't have been there, and it was painfully obvious. They struggled every step of the way. They dropped down to the two year programme, from the three year. One of them took 5 years, to not graduate. Politics at work.

There's nothing wrong with a trade. I had an opportunity to apprentice as a machinist, when I came out of college. After winning academic awards in high school and college I was damned-well going to use what I'd learnt, and it had been drilled into my head (in school) that the earning potential of a new grad, in my field, was damned high. It was a mistake, from a financial standpoint. There are good jobs to be had, for people with skill. People are needed in manufacturing, construction, etc.
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I couldn't agree more. I often say that College is where I learned everything, and University is where I got my piece of paper. I have a Diploma in Mechanical Engineering Technology - Automotive Product Design and a Bachelors of Engineering. The B.Eng got me the ring and opened up a few doors. The College is where I developed my work ethic, build my confidence and learned the majority of what I know... the combination of both got me my current job.

Flashmonkey said:
... Those engineers don't go home.
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Nope, no we don't... I'm still at work (although I don't work for Ford)
 
EngineerJoe said:
I couldn't agree more. I often say that College is where I learned everything, and University is where I got my piece of paper. I have a Diploma in Mechanical Engineering Technology - Automotive Product Design and a Bachelors of Engineering. The B.Eng got me the ring and opened up a few doors. The College is where I developed my work ethic, build my confidence and learned the majority of what I know... the combination of both got me my current job.

Nope, no we don't... I'm still at work (although I don't work for Ford)
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I agree as well but there is a two tier system where a college education is unfairly considered second class, this really needs to change if Canada wants to compete on the world stage.
 
backmarkerducati said:
I agree as well but there is a two tier system where a college education is unfairly considered second class, this really needs to change if Canada wants to compete on the world stage.
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I think university education in Canada is similar to university in Europe and USA is it not?
When I went to University the entrance requirments between college and university were quite different.
 
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murf said:
I think university education in Canada is similar to university in Europe and USA is it not?
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Not sure on Europe but in the USA they have associate degrees which are basically the first two years of a bachelors. If you want to go on to a bachelors you (typically) have two more years. What we call a university they call a either a college or a university (same thing to them). They also have "community colleges" but again most bachelor programs give full credit for what was learned there (assuming it was related and is RA). There are issues with RA and NA programs but as long as your credits are RA (regardless of source) you can use them to move forward with your education.

In Canada the University system has been dragged kicking and screaming into acknowledging college credits at all. The two school types have different accreditation (where in the US they are all RA, well the worth while ones are). In the best cases here if you go to college first they will give you one year credit for a two year program and maybe two for a three year program. In some cases my three years of college is worth only 7 credits in a related university program here! They will make you take all the same courses over again (in many cases the exact same content)...

Where our system is broken, college and university are diverging paths (and have separate accreditation). Universities make it as hard as possible to use you college credits towards a degree. At the same time people are graduating university and then taking a college course to get the knowledge they need to get a job (I know many that have done this).

The sad part is, once you have worked a few years the college education is pretty much a worthless piece of paper to both the university and business worlds. Degree is king, college may get you the job but not much more. The irony is, my college education is pretty much worthless to Canadian Universities but is considered three years of RA university, 90 (actually more) credits in the US!

As a graduate of a respected three year college program researching degree completion paths I am very familiar with the US and Canada systems of acknowledging the Canadian college education. There are some Canadian universities that have specific articulation agreements but they are few and far between, there are always minor exceptions.

Although there are not many topics where I would suggest looking to the US as an example, the accreditation structure (not cost!) of the post secondary system is one of them. Our colleges and universities should have the same accreditation, college credits should be fully acknowledge by the university system. Someone who completes two or three years of university (or community college) should graduate with the equivalent of today's diplomas (two year) or advanced diplomas (three year) if they go the full four years get a bachelors.

Some Universities are starting to do joint programs with local community colleges here to implement something like this for specific programs but there is a very long road ahead. Some community colleges are fighting the good fight to offer in-house degrees but it is a long and hard battle. The arrogance of the university establishment is nearly unprecedented (the people who run the system).
 
^^that's a great post!

An example of a university/college joint arrangement is Durham College and UOIT. But from what I've heard even that arrangement is strife with political shenanigans. There's a long way to go indeed.
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