Is Tuition Really THAT Unreasonable in Ontario?

[Freestyle72]

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I used to work in our engineering structures lab as labourer basically... compacting soil, mixing concrete, soldering strain gauges to wiring, helping grad students with their experiments made $10/h... man I wouldn't even get out of bed for that kind of money anymore LOL.

 

[Freestyle72]

General Dynamics is in London, Cami is nearby also?

Cami is near by but not in London. So that pretty much leaves General Dynamics and Dillon Consulting. Seeing as Dillon is full of ******** and the pay is outrageously low, no thanks. Also I am talking all types of engineering. General Dynamics offers job to mechanical and maybe electrical, I don't think much more than that.

 

[backmarkerducati]

General Dynamics is in London, Cami is nearby also?

I worked at CAMI as a welder and lived in London for one of my co-ops. Not sure they are a hiring boom these days and they do not do a lot of Engineering work on site.

 

[murf]

I worked at CAMI as a welder and lived in London for one of my co-ops. Not sure they are a hiring boom these days and they do not do a lot of Engineering work on site.

there's plenty of engineers there!

 

[caboose56]

there's plenty of engineers there!

All process or manufacturing engineers. I know a few people working there and don't know any who really enjoy it.

There's something very demotivating about working on a program that burns through hundreds of thousands of dollars (not joking at all) for no other reason than we are contractually obligated to do the work. I work in technical validation (a form of quality control) so the stuff I'm working on doesn't matter at all, the systems have been completely redesigned and all the stuff I have worked on since August will have to be redone.

There's also something unrewarding about spending 12 months working on a 18,000 page maintenance manual knowing that 3/4 of it will be thrown out before it ever gets read because those vehicles no longer exist.

 

[murf]

All process or manufacturing engineers. I know a few people working there and don't know any who really enjoy it.

There's something very demotivating about working on a program that burns through hundreds of thousands of dollars (not joking at all) for no other reason than we are contractually obligated to do the work. I work in technical validation (a form of quality control) so the stuff I'm working on doesn't matter at all, the systems have been completely redesigned and all the stuff I have worked on since August will have to be redone.

There's also something unrewarding about spending 12 months working on a 18,000 page maintenance manual knowing that 3/4 of it will be thrown out before it ever gets read because those vehicles no longer exist.

the VAE (vehicle assebly engineers) I worked with seemed to enjoy their work. I think the guys in the stamping plant as well. I think the pay is good too.

They have a quality group as well but that's mostly root causing problems and using the CMM so it's a bit different than what you do.

 

[NP6000]

Cami is near by but not in London. So that pretty much leaves General Dynamics and Dillon Consulting. Seeing as Dillon is full of ******** and the pay is outrageously low, no thanks. Also I am talking all types of engineering. General Dynamics offers job to mechanical and maybe electrical, I don't think much more than that.

From what I have seen first hand, General Dynamics doesn't offer a great deal of engineering experience outside of the typical "make sure this product meets the regulatory requirements, then fill out this pile of paperword etc. etc."

Generally speaking, mechanical engineering jobs with that deal with the design and development of cutting edge technology are not found in Canada. They lie in USA, Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan.

It is amusing that the Canadian government complains about the "brain drain" where all of the talented graduates leave the country after receiving their taxpayer subsidised post secondary education. They need to take a look in the mirror before they condemn those that leave for better paying, more technical jobs that are far more challenging and rewarding.

 

[murf]

From what I have seen first hand, General Dynamics doesn't offer a great deal of engineering experience outside of the typical "make sure this product meets the regulatory requirements, then fill out this pile of paperword etc. etc."

Generally speaking, mechanical engineering jobs with that deal with the design and development of cutting edge technology are not found in Canada. They lie in USA, Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan.

It is amusing that the Canadian government complains about the "brain drain" where all of the talented graduates leave the country after receiving their taxpayer subsidised post secondary education. They need to take a look in the mirror before they condemn those that leave for better paying, more technical jobs that are far more challenging and rewarding.

don't they design and make the Stryker in London? It used to be part of GM and some of the Design Engineers went to the Canadian Engineering Center in Oshawa since they all used the same Cad package

 

[caboose56]

don't they design and make the Stryker in London? It used to be part of GM and some of the Design Engineers went to the Canadian Engineering Center in Oshawa since they all used the same Cad package

The Stryker is/was designed at GD's Sterling Heights, Michigan location. Some are made in Michigan, some in Alabama and some in London. Right now London is 100% dedicated to the Saudi National Guard vehicles, the design work for those is done in London... but don't even get me started on the number of ECO's screwing everything up.

 

[turbodish]

It still gets back to the basic question - why should government (meaning the average taxpayer) subsidize higher education even more than it already does?

If you're going to subsidize tuition so graduates can go on to personally benefit from higher incomes in lucrative professions, how does that benefit the rest of the taxpayer base who do not go on to higher education and as a result do not get to personally benefit from high government subsidies for tuition?

Where is their quid pro quo?

 

[caboose56]

It still gets back to the basic question - why should government (meaning the average taxpayer) subsidize higher education even more than it already does?

If you're going to subsidize tuition so graduates can go on to personally benefit from higher incomes in lucrative professions, how does that benefit the rest of the taxpayer base who do not go on to higher education and as a result do not get to personally benefit from high government subsidies for tuition?

Where is their quid pro quo?

I think you answered your own question. Higher income means more income tax revenue, and more tax collected on just about everything else since a bigger paycheck usually means a bigger tv, bigger house, bigger car, etc.

Is there any data on incomes of those with a University education compared to those without?

 

[turbodish]

I think you answered your own question. Higher income means more income tax revenue, and more tax collected on just about everything else since a bigger paycheck usually means a bigger tv, bigger house, bigger car, etc.

Is there any data on incomes of those with a University education compared to those without?

Higher incomes also mean that they are in a potentially better position to pay back the cost of earning the degree that led to that higher income. Why should some poor slob working a low paying factory assembly job have even just a bit more taken off their paycheck to increase tuition subsidies so that some engineering student or doctor or lawyer can get that BMW or Mercedes a bit sooner after graduation?

Yes there is data. There's a Stats Can study from a few years ago that says: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81-595-m2010081-eng.htm

On average, the employment earnings of postsecondary graduates are higher than those of individuals without postsecondary qualifications. However, not everyone earns the average – a 2004 report shows, for example, that while 25% of university graduates earned substantially more than high school graduates, 25% of university-degree holders earned salaries that were lower than those of the average high school graduate (Mackenzie 2004). This points to significant variation in the earnings of university and college graduates, in that they may be significantly better off than their high school graduate counterparts — or significantly worse off. This variability implies a certain degree of risk in choosing to invest in education. The question then becomes – who is most at risk for not receiving high returns to their investment in postsecondary education?

See the table at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/2010081/tbl/tbl2.1-eng.htm

 

[caboose56]

Higher incomes also mean that they are in a potentially better position to pay back the cost of earning the degree that led to that higher income. Why should some poor slob working a low paying factory assembly job have even just a bit more taken off their paycheck to increase tuition subsidies so that some engineering student or doctor or lawyer can get that BMW or Mercedes a bit sooner after graduation?

Yes there is data. There's a Stats Can study from a few years ago that says: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81-595-m2010081-eng.htm


See the table at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/2010081/tbl/tbl2.1-eng.htm

Why should said factory worker have even a bit more taken off their paycheck for healthcare when doctors and lawyers and such are perfectly capable of paying for their own healthcare? You could ask that question about a lot of things that tax revenue goes towards.

 

[murf]

Higher incomes also mean that they are in a potentially better position to pay back the cost of earning the degree that led to that higher income. Why should some poor slob working a low paying factory assembly job have even just a bit more taken off their paycheck to increase tuition subsidies so that some engineering student or doctor or lawyer can get that BMW or Mercedes a bit sooner after graduation?

Yes there is data. There's a Stats Can study from a few years ago that says: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81-595-m2010081-eng.htm


See the table at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/2010081/tbl/tbl2.1-eng.htm

the entire country benefits with a smarter population in the grand scheme of things. Not to mention it would be cheaper for the average workers kids to get into university.

The average earnings for university graduates really depends on their degree......an average doctor is going to make alot more than an Arts graduate on average. I think the study in the USA showed the average university graduate will make an average of 1 million more than a non graduate.

 

[Red_Liner740]

In all seriousness though, what job out there doesnt require some sort of university degree or college diploma? Its getting rare for it.

The breakdown should be, cost of tuition of university vs college and the earning of university graduates vs college graduates.

You guys wanna hear the most ironic thing? i went to both University and College, and am currently working in a field where i require ZERO diplomas or degrees or any sort of qualifying making more money to start than what i would be making as a Aircraft Maintenance Engineer OR in IT. I guess it shows to be good at anything you do and stand out because the company head hunted me for the position.

In any case, i put myself through college working full time. 7am go to college across the city, finish at 4pm, drive straight to work, work till midnight and come home for 1am where i ****, showered and shaved and slept for 5 hours....did that for 2 years but i didnt have a dime of debt and had more than enough money for extra curricular stuff....now a University would have been a totally different story...

The other issue is saturation...with so many students out there finishing colleges and universities (hey, we are told u need it to be successful) and with a mountain of debt hovering over them, they know that they can offer an insultingly low salary cuz someone out there is desperate enough to take it.

 

[knowledge]

An on campus-job? You mean like the students that work for the university handing out parking tickets? Those jobs that offer 20 openings a year and have 3000 applicants? Yes, I am sure i would qualify for those jobs too just like all the other applicants.

So which bus would I have taken from Kibride to Mac every day? Which bus would someone that lives in Brantford, Waterdown, Milton or anywhere that's not Hamilton take to Mac every day? You can't save money by taking a bus if there is no bus for you to take. I already addressed the point about potential students living within bussing distance, my point was regarding those who are not. Swing and a miss.

Greyhound goes from the hamilton go station to brantford. There's a go bus from milton to hamilton. Etc. I know what your point is. And I'm saying it's not a very cogent one. If you're not within (what you claim to be) "bussing distance", then you obviously have a longer bus ride. You can study during that time so the fact that it's a longer bus ride doesn't really matter. I know plenty of people that do this. It's not the most convenient option, but it's still a possibility (and routine) for a lot of people.

They're not that hard to get. And if you're really that skeptical, then I question your social skills, your eligibility for the interview, or just you as a person. All you need to qualify is a good case (ie I need the money). Then all you have to do is not be an idiot to have a very good job of landing it. If you can't set yourself apart from other applicants for a part-time job like that, then you should probably be more worried about landing a job AFTER university. (This isn't a personal remark against you - I'm tying it in to where discussion seems to be headed.) And you're also making my suggestion appear more ludicrous than it sounds. There are different types of on-campus jobs: security, parking attendant, computer lab supervision, tutoring, etc.

your lol would be more valid if you didn't live at home. lol

I'm not knocking res. I wish I did it (I opted out to have a bike and spending money throughout the year...after realizing that you can't put a price on the experience. lol). I'm just saying that you can't live on res. for 4 years and then protest tuition increases. There are houses you can rent around ANY university. You'd have to be a princess to choose the convenience over money when you NEED the money.

 

[murf]

,
They're not that hard to get. And if you're really that skeptical, then I question your social skills, your eligibility for the interview, or just you as a person. All you need to qualify is a good case (ie I need the money). Then all you have to do is not be an idiot to have a very good job of landing it. .

how many applicants for the job? Are these the kind of jobs that you need "connections"?

 

[caboose56]

Greyhound goes from the hamilton go station to brantford. There's a go bus from milton to hamilton. Etc. I know what your point is. And I'm saying it's not a very cogent one. If you're not within (what you claim to be) "bussing distance", then you obviously have a longer bus ride. You can study during that time so the fact that it's a longer bus ride doesn't really matter. I know plenty of people that do this. It's not the most convenient option, but it's still a possibility (and routine) for a lot of people.

They're not that hard to get. And if you're really that skeptical, then I question your social skills, your eligibility for the interview, or just you as a person. All you need to qualify is a good case (ie I need the money). Then all you have to do is not be an idiot to have a very good job of landing it. If you can't set yourself apart from other applicants for a part-time job like that, then you should probably be more worried about landing a job AFTER university. (This isn't a personal remark against you - I'm tying it in to where discussion seems to be headed.) And you're also making my suggestion appear more ludicrous than it sounds. There are different types of on-campus jobs: security, parking attendant, computer lab supervision, tutoring, etc.

Good luck working a part time job when you're spending 4 hours a day on a bus. I can't read in cars, i get motion sickness. Many people do.

Get a ride from home to the Go station in Brantford.
Take the Go from Brantford to Hamilton
Transfer to the HSR bus
Take the HSR bus to Mac

Ya, that's realistic to do 5-7 days a week.

I think it's time for you to change your screen name. The irony is killing me.

how many applicants for the job? Are these the kind of jobs that you need "connections"?

Apparently it doesn't matter how many applicants there are, you just need to be not an idiot. Assuming half the applicants are not idiots. They'll just hire 1500 people to work 20 positions. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[turbodish]

the entire country benefits with a smarter population in the grand scheme of things. Not to mention it would be cheaper for the average workers kids to get into university.

The average earnings for university graduates really depends on their degree......an average doctor is going to make alot more than an Arts graduate on average. I think the study in the USA showed the average university graduate will make an average of 1 million more than a non graduate.

The entire country benefits from an educated population. True, and that is why tuition is subsidized to a degree already, and to a much greater degree than down south. Should it be completely free? Will people then piss and moan about having to pay for accomodation and books and demand that the cost of those items be government-paid too?

The average cost of a degree also depends on the program you're in. While university tuitions have risen significantly for degrees leading to professional accreditation, tuition costs for general Arts or Sciences degrees are still in the mid-$5K range per year. That's not exhorbitant by any stretch for someone looking for a liberal Arts education, and the higher tuition costs in the professional programs are reasonably justified by both the higher operating costs in those programs and the higher earning potential of graduates from them.

The whole cost of education vs accessibility argument is examined in this recent document from the Higher Education Quality Council of Ontario. In particular, the paper looks at the real cost of tuition after all factors are taken into account, tuition rates, tax credits, subsidies, etc, and what the real effect of tuition is on participation. It's not what many here would intuitively believe. http://www.heqco.ca/SiteCollectionDocuments/AtIssueTuitionENG.pdf

 

[knowledge]

Good luck working a part time job when you're spending 4 hours a day on a bus. I can't read in cars, i get motion sickness. Many people do.

Get a ride from home to the Go station in Brantford.
Take the Go from Brantford to Hamilton
Transfer to the HSR bus
Take the HSR bus to Mac

Ya, that's realistic to do 5-7 days a week.

I think it's time for you to change your screen name. The irony is killing me.

Apparently it doesn't matter how many applicants there are, you just need to be not an idiot. Assuming half the applicants are not idiots. They'll just hire 1500 people to work 20 positions. Makes perfect sense to me.

So since you and some people get motion sickness ('cause you know, it's very rare for people to read any type of book on public transportation, even though plenty of people actually do this), it's not viable? Got it.

Why do you always seem to take discussions so personally? Is there really any reason to start insulting me? I'm sure statistics have shown that everyone is a literal representation of what their alias is. Hurp derp go change your screen name, I highly doubt you're a caboose that people sleep and have meals in (or whatever other definition you might have had in mind when you picked it). Anyways...it looks like this discussion's done. Thanks for your input, everyone (and yours until the last post).

how many applicants for the job? Are these the kind of jobs that you need "connections"?

Not for uni jobs. 1500's a really convenient number to pull out of your *** when making a reductio ad absurdum argument. I'd say that on-campus jobs are sort of a hidden gem. Everyone knows about them, but people always try applying close to home, at a mall, etc. before trying for these ones. As a result, they're also less competitive. I'm not sure if he's ever applied for a uni job but they have a financial process for application that weeds out a lot of people.

I've suggested a bunch of my co-workers at a job to apply for jobs at their uni when their hours got cut and a whole bunch of them got in. None of them had relevant experience. But I'm willing to grant that luck/timing could definitely be a possibility. It's just a bit weird that all 3 Toronto universities hired the average person like that, no? I also only recommended it because I have other buddies working on-campus at universities across the province.

For a lot of part-time jobs, I've skipped the queue by asking when the manager's working, coming back when they're working, politely asking if I could have a second of their time, handing them my resume, then shaking their hand. It's worked so much better than applying online and I didn't need a hook up to get in. I'm sure it's much harder for full-time positions and real jobs, but that isn't what's being discussed.

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