Iran - What's the deal? Bomb or not?

[Shaman]

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How can anyone have a serious conversation about Israel without being branded an anti-semite? Answer: you can't. I have no stake in this game except outrage at the way some countries act. Look at Iran: no external aggression... yet they are being demonized at every opportunity by Israel and its allies. I agree that I would not want to live in Iran, however there are so many lies being pushed about them, who even knows what to believe? Are you aware that there are Jewish temples within Iran, left unmolested and encouraged? Probably not, you won't see it on CNN.

I don't give a damn about your religion or upbringing: I do care passionately about countries that foment unjustifiable wars, push people out of their homes and treat their neighbours like dirt. You want to see a modern concentration camp? Israel built one for the State of Palestine. I'm not defending the bad actions of Hamas, either - but two wrongs do not make a right... and Israel is not in the right here. There are documented cases of Israeli troops killing man, woman, and child; then taking their land.

Type "condemning Israel" into Google - how many U.N. condemnations of Israeli aggression against Palestinian women and children do you see? Why do you think that is? Is it just a big misunderstanding and Israel is beyond reproach, do you think? Does that make the U.N. an anti-semite organization?

Please. Stop trying to make this a religious / racist / anti-semite issue - when it's clearly not.

Oh and just a quick edit: here's what I said about semites that you likely have NO understanding of:

"The word "Semite" refers to a language and cultural group made up of ancient and modern people. Semitic languages include: Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Moabite, Hebrew, Phonecian, Assyrian, and Babylonian. (Biblically they are considered the descendants of Shem, son of Noah.) According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the first usage of anti-Semitic for a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced against Jews, was in the 1880s (about the same time as the rise of Zionism).

If we return to the original meaning of Semitic, it is difficult to call Palestinians and other Arabs anti-Semitic, since they are themselves Semites. Palestinian Arabs are opposed to the state policies of Israel that deny them legitimate human and civil rights and the right to a State. They are not against the religion of Judaism except as it is used as the rationale for actions against them."

 

[palmpalm]

Aww sugarmuffin, it's so hard to be a Jew-hating antisemitic track fanatic spreading lies about us awful Israelies these days. You poor thing.

How can anyone have a serious conversation about Israel without being branded an anti-semite? Answer: you can't. I have no stake in this game except outrage at the way some countries act. Look at Iran: no external aggression... yet they are being demonized at every opportunity by Israel and its allies. I agree that I would not want to live in Iran, however there are so many lies being pushed about them, who even knows what to believe? Are you aware that there are Jewish temples within Iran, left unmolested and encouraged? Probably not, you won't see it on CNN.

I don't give a damn about your religion or upbringing: I do care passionately about countries that foment unjustifiable wars, push people out of their homes and treat their neighbours like dirt. You want to see a modern concentration camp? Israel built one for the State of Palestine. I'm not defending the bad actions of Hamas, either - but two wrongs do not make a right... and Israel is not in the right here. There are documented cases of Israeli troops killing man, woman, and child; then taking their land.

Type "condemning Israel" into Google - how many U.N. condemnations of Israeli aggression against Palestinian women and children do you see? Why do you think that is? Is it just a big misunderstanding and Israel is beyond reproach, do you think? Does that make the U.N. an anti-semite organization?

Please. Stop trying to make this a religious / racist / anti-semite issue - when it's clearly not.

 

[Shaman]

Aww sugarmuffin, it's so hard to be a Jew-hating antisemitic track fanatic spreading lies about us awful Israelies these days. You poor thing.

I figured that would be the response. So no discussion - just base incrimination. This is the fallback for someone who has no counter-argument, demonize the opponent. Quality work. Carry on!

 

[palmpalm]

Awww, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings little shamanaboobala, but I don't argue with antisemites.

I figured that would be the response. So no discussion - just base incrimination. This is the fallback for someone who has no counter-argument, demonize the opponent. Quality work. Carry on!

 

[Shaman]

Awww, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings little shamanaboobala, but I don't argue with antisemites.

Uh-huh. Let's recap: "How can anyone have a serious conversation about Israel without being branded an anti-semite? Answer: you can't."

Game. Set. Match. You lose, sir.

 

[palmpalm]

Uh-huh. Let's recap: "How can anyone have a serious conversation about Israel without being branded an anti-semite? Answer: you can't."

Game. Set. Match. You lose, sir.

Look at you sugarapple, So cute with your Jew-baiting.

 

[Shaman]

Being accused of something I clearly am not is fun. But more importantly, getting the last word is obviously vital to you. Can't have that, so may as well stoop to your infantile level. I present to you my counter-argument:

Word.

Oh, and are these people anti-semitic too?

[video=youtube;LfiE1BshUn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfiE1BshUn8[/video]

 

[Shaman]

How about these rabbis and others of Judaic faith? Are they anti-semitic?

[video=youtube;I73UtRRSbqg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I73UtRRSbqg[/video]

 

[Shaman]

Maybe these rabbis are anti-semitic? How about the rabbi from Israel they refer to? Is he anti-semitic?

[video=youtube;9oeB3QhX2RI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI[/video]

 

[palmpalm]

Oh, and are these people anti-semitic too?

[video=youtube;LfiE1BshUn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfiE1BshUn8[/video]

Yes, they are.

 

[palmpalm]

Man, you must really hate Jews. Yes, they are also antisemitic. Several prominent Rabbis have called for the excommunication of them from the Jewish People.

Maybe these rabbis are anti-semitic? How about the rabbi from Israel they refer to? Is he anti-semitic?

[video=youtube;9oeB3QhX2RI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI[/video]

 

[PSY]

There was never any such people as Palestinians. They exist now as a product of the last Century and the creation of the State of Israel since the 1850s. The word Palestine was the name the Romans gave to the area that was the ancient states of Israel and Judaea when they concurred it and they got this name from the ancient (no longer existing at that time) enemy of the Jews, the Philistines (Philistina-palestina).

Futhermore, I can assure you, as an Israeli, as a man whose many friends and family are, and have been, integral in the Israeli Military and Government, that there is no effort to do any of the things you have mentioned to anyone, certainly not the people who now call themselves Palestinian. I have many Palestinian friends and lots of Israeli Arab friends as do many Jewish Israelis. I know very few Israelis who have hatred for anyone. In the army I provided a great amount of medical care to to Palestinians and I also helped provide them with food and shelter.

To state all these ridiculous lies about Israel is either to 1) be grossly misinformed and ignorant of the reality or 2)be an antisemite.

The bold part of your story sounds "odd".
Well there are people there now and they call themselves Palestinians, so what happens to them now.

 

[palmpalm]

The bold part of your story sounds "odd".
Well there are people there now and they call themselves Palestinians, so what happens to them now.

Why does that sound odd? Israel and the Israeli military provide medical care, food, and other supplies to Palestinians every day. http://www.beyondimages.info/b110.html and http://unitedwithisrael.org/settlers-help-palestinian-child/ and http://www.idfblog.com/2012/03/18/medical-supplies-gaza/

Israelis, and in particular the Military, are deeply concerned with humanitarianism and being moral. Indeed, British Colonel Richard Kemp said: "“Based on my knowledge and experience, I can say that during Operation Cast Lead, the Israel Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in the combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while faced with an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capacities behind the human shields of the civilian population.”" He also said "Today, Israel faces a conspiracy of delegitimization, which aims to give validity and justification to attacks on Israel by groups such as Iran’s proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, allowing them to strike at Israel with impunity, and encouraging the view that any retaliatory or defensive measures by Israel are by definition disproportionate and should be criminalized." http://blog.camera.org/archives/2011/06/uk_colonel_richard_kemp_again.html also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw




As for your question: Good question. I don't have a good answer but to suggest the creation of a Palestinian State as per Allan Dershowitz's ideas ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443404004577578910457017318.html and http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/09/the-dershowitz-formula.html) presented to Mahmoud Abbas.

That said, I am pessimistic about the situation as are most of my Israeli Jewish, Arab, and Palestinian friends.

 

[RockerGuy]

Why does that sound odd? Israel and the Israeli military provide medical care, food, and other supplies to Palestinians every day. http://www.beyondimages.info/b110.html and http://unitedwithisrael.org/settlers-help-palestinian-child/ and http://www.idfblog.com/2012/03/18/medical-supplies-gaza/

Israelis, and in particular the Military, are deeply concerned with humanitarianism and being moral. Indeed, British Colonel Richard Kemp said: "“Based on my knowledge and experience, I can say that during Operation Cast Lead, the Israel Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in the combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while faced with an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capacities behind the human shields of the civilian population.”" He also said "Today, Israel faces a conspiracy of delegitimization, which aims to give validity and justification to attacks on Israel by groups such as Iran’s proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, allowing them to strike at Israel with impunity, and encouraging the view that any retaliatory or defensive measures by Israel are by definition disproportionate and should be criminalized." http://blog.camera.org/archives/2011/06/uk_colonel_richard_kemp_again.html also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw




As for your question: Good question. I don't have a good answer but to suggest the creation of a Palestinian State as per Allan Dershowitz's ideas ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443404004577578910457017318.html and http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/09/the-dershowitz-formula.html) presented to Mahmoud Abbas.

That said, I am pessimistic about the situation as are most of my Israeli Jewish, Arab, and Palestinian friends.

Guess what? The Americans have been providing aid to the Iraqi people. Doesn't mean that they didn't invade them.
What's the point?

 

[PSY]

@palmpalm I have no stake in this but based on your posts let me ask you the following:
1. You became dismissive and started name calling to people posting rational reply's complete with video footage of people that share your race/religion. I thought based on your experiences and family connections you would offer insight but instead you tossed out rhetoric and then started calling other people names.

2. You called your own people antisemites, uhm what does that make you to them.

3. You failed to offer any criticism of your own country/people yet others have said in jest but with a hint of truth that the ruling Royals of their country need to go, so a war is not so bad (again, they said it in a jest/odd way). It is said a true Patriot is one that can openly be critical of their country in the hopes to improve it.

4. The Israeli government condemns settlements. Palestinians own the land and the Israeli government agrees yet there are Jewish settlements on them and they refuse to leave. Why doesn't the government remove them? Would it be wrong if the Palestinians served an order to vacate in 30 days then bulldoze those homes or send in their "troops" to secure the land and return to the legal owner?
If your neighbor took half of your back yard and built a shack house on it and claimed it's now theirs. You debate go to court and the courts rule that the land rightfully and is legally yours yet they stay living in the shack house. What would you do? What would you expect law enforcement to do for you?

5. One side has gunships/tanks/troops/fighter jets the other has rocks/small arms. That kinda reminds me of David and Goliath.
Before you attack me or try to marginalize my observations, Israel has an Army vs. Hamas a terrorist group. A country vs. a group.

Let's put all this stuff aside because it's based on what I call stupid religion of everyone wanting to show their God has bigger penis that the other guy's God. My God is more important than your God therefore I am more worthy than you. The term God and how I used it can represent any religions deity.

Now, please consider this. We are no longer chucking cannonballs at each other. We live in an age where a tiny sandwich bag (hell even a condom) can carry deadly biological elements. We live in a time where a nuclear bomb can fit in a backpack.
So, all it will take is for just 1 person to get through the Israeli defense to set off the bomb or deliver the fatal bio element.
Reach down and pickup sand, use any device you want to assist you. You will drop 1 grain at some point. All it takes is for 1 person to make it in.

BUT does the person have to come from the outside in. What if this pushes someone over the edge within Israel? What if people within Israel can no longer take it and rebel against their government? Timothy McVeigh did it in the US.

Before you say that can never ever happen.

Let's just remember who assassinated this guy

November 4, 1995, Tel Aviv
Yitzhak Rabin, Assassinated - Israeli Prime Minister


Assassinated by this guy







Yigal Amir (Hebrew: יגאל עמיר‎, born May 23, 1970) is the Israeli assassin of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin.
The assassination took place on November 4, 1995 at the conclusion of a rally in Tel Aviv.

 

[PSY]

@palpalm

I offer you this to consider.
Let's assume that Israel and the US invade Iran.
From my understanding Iran has historical religious significance to most major religions.
Now, do you really believe the devout Muslims on the planet would just do nothing.
Can you imagine how many more will become extremists?
Can you imagine how many non Muslims would join that fight against Israel and the US?
Can you imagine the daily terror that will be unleashed on the rest of us?
Can you imagine what what that will do to all Jews?

Do you not think other countries would line up over night with Russia or China for "security" so they are not the next to be invaded?
Are the powers that be trying to start another global arms race.

North Korea and South Korea have nuclear bombs and are actively engaged in a war yet they don't fire on each other.
From my understanding Pakistan and India have a hatred for each other. You already know they both have nuclear armament...yet nothing happening there. Russia and the US bread doom and gloom into 2 generations, the world was going to end, they are going to unleash their arms...nothing happened.

Come to think of it Russia and the US had thousands of nuclear bombs yet all they really needed to do the job would be at best 100...why the need to keep making thousands, oh right...$$$

 

[palmpalm]

@palmpalm I have no stake in this but based on your posts let me ask you the following:
2. You called your own people antisemites, uhm what does that make you to them.
4. The Israeli government condemns settlements. Palestinians own the land and the Israeli government agrees yet there are Jewish settlements on them and they refuse to leave. Why doesn't the government remove them? Would it be wrong if the Palestinians served an order to vacate in 30 days then bulldoze those homes or send in their "troops" to secure the land and return to the legal owner?
If your neighbor took half of your back yard and built a shack house on it and claimed it's now theirs. You debate go to court and the courts rule that the land rightfully and is legally yours yet they stay living in the shack house. What would you do? What would you expect law enforcement to do for you?


BUT does the person have to come from the outside in. What if this pushes someone over the edge within Israel? What if people within Israel can no longer take it and rebel against their government? Timothy McVeigh did it in the US.

To 2: likely someone they have a problem with.
To 4: a) The Government of Israel does regularly remove settlements.
b) the land on the West Bank of the Jordan River was captured from Jordan by Israel in a defensive war when Jordan attacked Israel. Under international law, land captured in a defensive war can be annexed. Israel choose not to do that precisely because it wanted to trade the land back for peace. The Jordanians did not want to deal with the refugee population (now Palestinians) that was developing there and so Israel was stuck with it. Right and wrong are moral absolutes that are subject to different moralities. I am an atheist and so have no religious interest in any of this. I don't feel I can answer this question but my understanding of law, which is indeed limited, and my personal opinion is that the rightful legal owner of the land in the west bank is the State of Israel.
C)I'm not sure what I would do; hypotheticals are difficult to answer. That said, your analogy is not apt. Israel didn't steal anybodies land. There are certainly individual circumstances where people did this but for the most part the State as a whole, and the majority of Jewish settlers over the past 200 or so years, purchased land, or won it in defensive war fair, they did not steal it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

People forget that there has been a continuous Jewish present in the Land of Israel throughout the past few thousand years, no matter who was ruling. When Jews from other parts of the world started settling in the Land of Israel in large numbers almost 200 years ago many Arabs from nearby emmigrated alongside them because the Jewish settlers provided employment. Thus a new Arab population grew-up alongside a new Jewish population and both of them developed their nationalisms simultaneously. The problem, of course, was that both of them wanted the same land for the creation of nation state. When the British Mandate ended Israel was already a reality on the ground. Trains, roads, post offices, communities. All the components of a modern country already existed. The reason that the UN Recognized Israel as a State was because it was already a reality on the ground, not because of the Holocaust like many believe. Israel was in existence before the Holocaust and would have been recognized anyway.


If it were true that Israel stole someone elses land then I would be against Israel. If it were true that Israel makes efforts to hurt/kill/torture innocent people then I would be against Israel. If even 10 per cent of the horrible things people think Israel does were true then I would be against Israel. The problem, you see, is that it isn't true. Israel is a liberal democracy with an amazingly restrained and moral military and the only goal of the State of Israel is to live in peace. You have seen on this very board antisemites spouting off lies and propaganda about the State of Israel and, you know what?, I bet they truly believe they are right. They don't know any better. If giving land to Palestinians or giving away Jerusalem would ensure peace I would be the first to advocate for doing so but, sadly, history has taught us otherwise.

When you talk to me you are talking to an an atheist libertarian Israeli Jew who lived in Israel, served in Israel's Military, and loves my home of Canada and thinks Canada is a better country overall. I am not a Zionist and I am well aware of the faults of Israel. But I won't stand by while people spew antisemitic garbage as though it is the gospel truth. The antismites themselves are not likely to see reality but the people they are trying to brainwash might.

http://www.danielpipes.org/9931/palestine-israel-stealing-purchasing
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229912/if-israel-not-evil-world-big-trouble/dennis-prager
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ARecp7pvo&feature=related
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/270064/not-stealing-palestine-purchasing-israel-daniel-pipes
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFjerusalem.html

 

[palmpalm]

@palpalm

I offer you this to consider.
Let's assume that Israel and the US invade Iran.
From my understanding Iran has historical religious significance to most major religions.
Now, do you really believe the devout Muslims on the planet would just do nothing.
Can you imagine how many more will become extremists?
Can you imagine how many non Muslims would join that fight against Israel and the US?
Can you imagine the daily terror that will be unleashed on the rest of us?
Can you imagine what what that will do to all Jews?

Do you not think other countries would line up over night with Russia or China for "security" so they are not the next to be invaded?
Are the powers that be trying to start another global arms race.

North Korea and South Korea have nuclear bombs and are actively engaged in a war yet they don't fire on each other.
From my understanding Pakistan and India have a hatred for each other. You already know they both have nuclear armament...yet nothing happening there. Russia and the US bread doom and gloom into 2 generations, the world was going to end, they are going to unleash their arms...nothing happened.

Come to think of it Russia and the US had thousands of nuclear bombs yet all they really needed to do the job would be at best 100...why the need to keep making thousands, oh right...$$$

I have no idea why you are asking ME these questions. As I stated before, I don't want to invade Iran, I don't want Israel to attack Iran. That said, Iran is already attacking Israel through Hezbolah and Hamas who are proxy agents of Iran and when the President of a country speaks openly about hatred for, and destroying, another country, specifically one that represents a Nation who has had multiple attempts at its destruction so many times throughout history (The Holocaust is only the most recent example), that a word was invented for it (Genocide, invented by a Jew, Raphael Lemkin, to describe what was being done to Jews in Europe) one would be wise to pay attention and take head.

Once again I direct you to my favourite song-writer, Bob Dylan: http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/neighborhood-bully

 

[PSY]

To 2: likely someone they have a problem with.
To 4: a) The Government of Israel does regularly remove settlements.
b) the land on the West Bank of the Jordan River was captured from Jordan by Israel in a defensive war when Jordan attacked Israel. Under international law, land captured in a defensive war can be annexed. Israel choose not to do that precisely because it wanted to trade the land back for peace. The Jordanians did not want to deal with the refugee population (now Palestinians) that was developing there and so Israel was stuck with it. Right and wrong are moral absolutes that are subject to different moralities. I am an atheist and so have no religious interest in any of this. I don't feel I can answer this question but my understanding of law, which is indeed limited, and my personal opinion is that the rightful legal owner of the land in the west bank is the State of Israel.
C)I'm not sure what I would do; hypotheticals are difficult to answer. That said, your analogy is not apt. Israel didn't steal anybodies land. There are certainly individual circumstances where people did this but for the most part the State as a whole, and the majority of Jewish settlers over the past 200 or so years, purchased land, or won it in defensive war fair, they did not steal it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

People forget that there has been a continuous Jewish present in the Land of Israel throughout the past few thousand years, no matter who was ruling. When Jews from other parts of the world started settling in the Land of Israel in large numbers almost 200 years ago many Arabs from nearby emmigrated alongside them because the Jewish settlers provided employment. Thus a new Arab population grew-up alongside a new Jewish population and both of them developed their nationalisms simultaneously. The problem, of course, was that both of them wanted the same land for the creation of nation state. When the British Mandate ended Israel was already a reality on the ground. Trains, roads, post offices, communities. All the components of a modern country already existed. The reason that the UN Recognized Israel as a State was because it was already a reality on the ground, not because of the Holocaust like many believe. Israel was in existence before the Holocaust and would have been recognized anyway.


If it were true that Israel stole someone elses land then I would be against Israel. If it were true that Israel makes efforts to hurt/kill/torture innocent people then I would be against Israel. If even 10 per cent of the horrible things people think Israel does were true then I would be against Israel. The problem, you see, is that it isn't true. Israel is a liberal democracy with an amazingly restrained and moral military and the only goal of the State of Israel is to live in peace. You have seen on this very board antisemites spouting off lies and propaganda about the State of Israel and, you know what?, I bet they truly believe they are right. They don't know any better. If giving land to Palestinians or giving away Jerusalem would ensure peace I would be the first to advocate for doing so but, sadly, history has taught us otherwise.

When you talk to me you are talking to an an atheist libertarian Israeli Jew who lived in Israel, served in Israel's Military, and loves my home of Canada and thinks Canada is a better country overall. I am not a Zionist and I am well aware of the faults of Israel. But I won't stand by while people spew antisemitic garbage as though it is the gospel truth. The antismites themselves are not likely to see reality but the people they are trying to brainwash might.

http://www.danielpipes.org/9931/palestine-israel-stealing-purchasing
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229912/if-israel-not-evil-world-big-trouble/dennis-prager
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ARecp7pvo&feature=related
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/270064/not-stealing-palestine-purchasing-israel-daniel-pipes
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFjerusalem.html

@palpalm
You dismissed my scenario stating you do not deal in hypothetical but isn't that what Israel is trying to convince the rest of the world that Iran has or is 1 step away from a nuclear bomb. That means Israel is presenting a hypothetical to the world with if Iran does get a bomb they will nuke Israel. That's 2 hypotheticals in 1 statement.

 

[Shaman]

Seems like palmpalm is the real anti-semite here.

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