Increase Ontario 400-series Highway Speed Limit

[Kool]

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I'd be all for a speed increase on 400 series highways but only in rural areas. I travel round trip between Mississauga/Cornwall every weekend, and there are sections of highway where I'm the only one within sight. I don't see going 130 anymore dangerous than 120 or 110 or 100...

For me, it would make the most sense for the limit to stay at 100 within city limits (all of GTA, belleville, Kingston, Brockville, Cornwall, etc.) and then rise to ~ 120km/h on the outskirts. This would keep merging the same as before, where the majority of cars are entering the highway.

It doesn't make any sense to have such a long stretch of road, with so many varying road/traffic conditions, the same limit throughout. Make it like the autobahn in the sense that various speed limits are used depending on the area you happen to be driving in.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000
No use comparing ourselves to the Germans...because...??????? Oh ya they are the "master race"...lol Canucks are soooo... anyways.

 

[Cat13]

+100000000000000000000000000000000000
No use comparing ourselves to the Germans...because...??????? Oh ya they are the "master race"...lol Canucks are soooo... anyways.

No because different country different laws...

 

[zakarov]

Explain why Germany has unlimited speed on the autobahn and don't have much issues with accidents?

Are you comparing German drivers with North American ones??? Or are you comparing German Cars (BMW, Audi and the holly Mercedes) with American ones??? .... Go get a driving test in Europe and you’ll figure out how bad are your driving skills and reflex!
Guys, if you wanna drive fast. Plz, either make it over 180km/h (no cop will even try to catch you, but he will make a call for someone to do (in general a heli cop ter). Otherwise, keep it bellow 130km/h.
The day cops will start giving tickets for drivers staying/sleeping on the left line (like in Europe), then I'll suggest to higher the speed limits.
2cents

 

[danarchy]

Sorry..I'm still not getting it really, I go at 120kmh, which is 74mph, and have done for 16 years with no problems at all, if I did that speed in the UK, with arguably much stricter licensing, I'd be facing heavy fines every day. They have a strict 70mph max enforced by speed cameras and radar. With driving attitudes here if you raised the limit officially to 120kmh...you'd have idiots pushing their regular limit up another 20kmh. The max on french highways is 110kmh, still lower than our official max speed. The US, many places are 65mph, still lower than our unofficial max speed and very strictly enforced.

Another way of asking this question is, do you want the limit raised to 120kmh (actually more likely 110 kmh if you follow other countries) with a no tolerance policy at anywhere above that, with speed cameras and photo radar? Or do you want to continue with an unofficial policy which has a speed maximum above that of most other countries?

Who says those are the only two options? Not to sound like a broken record but Germany is nothing like either of those. We could have the same limits that we have now in populated areas and increase it in rural areas. I still haven't heard any good argument against increasing the limits AND enhancing training and licensing, other than that it would decrease revenue which I think is the sad truth.

 

[fastar1]

Who says those are the only two options? Not to sound like a broken record but Germany is nothing like either of those. We could have the same limits that we have now in populated areas and increase it in rural areas. I still haven't heard any good argument against increasing the limits AND enhancing training and licensing, other than that it would decrease revenue which I think is the sad truth.

It goes deeper than that. Our very road design is caca; lanes appearing and disappearing everywhere, incorrect or missing signage, and nonexistant enforcement of some rules. It's become cultural in the way we have adjusted to it all, and the only way to make our speed limits resemble those from other countries, would be to import their driving culture as a whole.

 

[Kool]

No because different country different laws...

Sorry...I've driven in Germany many many times...mostly same laws as here. BUT...they enforce the laws and we don't in hwy driving conditions. Like passing on the right....I believe we have this law just not enforced. Passing on the left but returning to the middle lane/driving lane.
It is sooo logical driving in Germany...many bordering countries residents drive through Germany just to take advantage of the sanity.

 

[Kool]

It goes deeper than that. Our very road design is caca; lanes appearing and disappearing everywhere, incorrect or missing signage, and nonexistant enforcement of some rules. It's become cultural in the way we have adjusted to it all, and the only way to make our speed limits resemble those from other countries, would be to import their driving culture as a whole.

That I agree with....poor poor signage and ridiculous engineering of roads

 

[danarchy]

It goes deeper than that. Our very road design is caca; lanes appearing and disappearing everywhere, incorrect or missing signage, and nonexistant enforcement of some rules. It's become cultural in the way we have adjusted to it all, and the only way to make our speed limits resemble those from other countries, would be to import their driving culture as a whole.

If you're in the middle of nowhere going straight for hours on end what signage do you need and how many lanes do you see appearing or disappearing?

If a screwed-up country like Serbia can handle it then Canada should be able to. Their limit is 120 and their roads are not nearly as good as ours. It all comes down to the drivers' skills.

 

[fastar1]

If you're in the middle of nowhere going straight for hours on end what signage do you need and how many lanes do you see appearing or disappearing?

If a screwed-up country like Serbia can handle it then Canada should be able to. Their limit is 120 and their roads are not nearly as good as ours. It all comes down to the drivers' skills.

Don't get me wrong, 120 would work fine on a lot of our highways. It's just that saying "we should allow 120 because country x does" is an oversimplification of a complex bunch of interactions that result in our drivers behaving the way they do.

 

[Nixel]

I agree with everything you said but that has nothing to do with truckers and old folks needing to drive slower. So again, if other countries can do it (including the enhanced driver training and licensing) then why can't we?

You can't just demand a sub section of the populace have to go slower, not to mention this isn't what other countries do. They simply have enforced their rules more strictly and ingrained the populace with the notion that passing to different lanes isn't a game of hot potato and that the law is the law. Want to pass? Move to the left and back in again. Just cruising along? Stick to the middle lane, so trucks can use the right lane. This will never be an "overnight" change in Ontario and would require a complete overhaul of our driver education system first with a large effort put towards restructuring our highway infrastructure to cope with the changes. Right now our highway system is so inconsistent it's not funny with HOV lanes popping up and disappearing they tend to create more problems. This doesn't even address that people treat them as the left-left-lane and excessively speed in them (~140kmh).

Then you have to address the issue of people who (im)migrate. It's just not a simple fix that can be asked as "Why can't we?" You're looking at a system another country has probably had implemented for a long time and to make that change ourselves is no small task. You also have to keep in mind you're asking this of a Political body that's more keen on defining "Marriage" and passing laws allowing them greater control over the internet.

 

[danarchy]

Don't get me wrong, 120 would work fine on a lot of our highways. It's just that saying "we should allow 120 because country x does" is an oversimplification of a complex bunch of interactions that result in our drivers behaving the way they do.

You can't just demand a sub section of the populace have to go slower, not to mention this isn't what other countries do. They simply have enforced their rules more strictly and ingrained the populace with the notion that passing to different lanes isn't a game of hot potato and that the law is the law. Want to pass? Move to the left and back in again. Just cruising along? Stick to the middle lane, so trucks can use the right lane. This will never be an "overnight" change in Ontario and would require a complete overhaul of our driver education system first with a large effort put towards restructuring our highway infrastructure to cope with the changes. Right now our highway system is so inconsistent it's not funny with HOV lanes popping up and disappearing they tend to create more problems. This doesn't even address that people treat them as the left-left-lane and excessively speed in them (~140kmh).

Then you have to address the issue of people who (im)migrate. It's just not a simple fix that can be asked as "Why can't we?" You're looking at a system another country has probably had implemented for a long time and to make that change ourselves is no small task. You also have to keep in mind you're asking this of a Political body that's more keen on defining "Marriage" and passing laws allowing them greater control over the internet.

It kind of feels like we're arguing the same side but not communicating effectively. I never said it would be simple or easy or that it's in the government's interest. In fact, I've stated quite the opposite when I said it's in the government's interest NOT to increase it so they can collect more in speeding tickets and I also said increasing the limit is not enough because we also need better training and tougher licensing. My only assertion here is that it there is no reason why we cannot improve our skills (via better training, tougher licensing and stricter enforcement) AND increase the speed limit in rural areas.

 

[OpenGambit]

Sorry...I've driven in Germany many many times...mostly same laws as here. BUT...they enforce the laws and we don't in hwy driving conditions. Like passing on the right....I believe we have this law just not enforced. Passing on the left but returning to the middle lane/driving lane.
It is sooo logical driving in Germany...many bordering countries residents drive through Germany just to take advantage of the sanity.

We have no passing on the right law (as long as you are in a different lane)

 

[OpenGambit]

It kind of feels like we're arguing the same side but not communicating effectively. I never said it would be simple or easy or that it's in the government's interest. In fact, I've stated quite the opposite when I said it's in the government's interest NOT to increase it so they can collect more in speeding tickets and I also said increasing the limit is not enough because we also need better training and tougher licensing. My only assertion here is that it there is no reason why we cannot improve our skills (via better training, tougher licensing and stricter enforcement) AND increase the speed limit in rural areas.

The speeding ticket issue doesnt' make sense becuase if that was the case, the would simply enforce the law they have now and make a killing.
They don't give tickets for speeding under 120 anyway ( if so I have never heard of it.. or its a guy going 135 being dropped down to 105)

 

[danarchy]

The speeding ticket issue doesnt' make sense becuase if that was the case, the would simply enforce the law they have now and make a killing.
They don't give tickets for speeding under 120 anyway ( if so I have never heard of it.. or its a guy going 135 being dropped down to 105)

You get more money by letting go of the guy doing 120 and going after the guy doing 130 and there's always one around...

 

[turbodish]

If a screwed-up country like Serbia can handle it then Canada should be able to. Their limit is 120 and their roads are not nearly as good as ours. It all comes down to the drivers' skills.

What exactly is it that Serbia can handle? Higher speed limits or the higher death toll that accompanies it?

Serbia's fatality rate in 2010 was 9.8 per 100,000 residents, or 43.2 per 100,000 vehicles.
Canada's average fatality rate was 9.2 per 100,000 residents, or 13.2 per 100,000 vehicles.
Ontario's fatality rates are about 1/2 the Canadian average.

 

[danarchy]

What exactly is it that Serbia can handle? Higher speed limits or the higher death toll that accompanies it?

Serbia's fatality rate in 2010 was 9.8 per 100,000 residents, or 43.2 per 100,000 vehicles.
Canada's average fatality rate was 9.2 per 100,000 residents, or 13.2 per 100,000 vehicles.
Ontario's fatality rates are about 1/2 the Canadian average.

Do you have the stats for highway-only fatality rates? Those ones would be the only ones relevant here.
Also, over there most families have at most one vehicle whereas here it's at least two which skews the vehicle stats, and the difference between 9.2 and 9.8 isn't that much.

Anyway, I'm getting kind of tired of this argument and there's a cool beer in the fridge waiting for me to start the weekend.

Cheers

 

[OpenGambit]

You get more money by letting go of the guy doing 120 and going after the guy doing 130 and there's always one around...

This monetary argument is so old, and ridiculous. they could just set up a camera and snap everyone going by if they just wanted cash. the idea that somehow raising the actual limit to 120 would change revenue is just horsecrap. Considering ( as you say) there will always be a guy going 130 that they can just pull over.

 

[psycho44]

I was just curious to see what other countries speed limits were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

It's interesting that we have one of the fastest truck with trailer limits with only Iran allowing them to go 110 km/h. Some countries with 130 km/h speed limit won't allow their trucks to go above 80 km/h.

 

[chrison]

If you're going to raise the speed limit to 130 km/h you have to consider not just yourself. So you'd prefer truckers going 130 km/h legally as well all those old folks. I haven't seen anywhere else in Canada where the speed limit is more than 110 km/h. Northern Ontario it's 90 km/h than you get into Manitoba/Saskatchewan at 100 km/h and Alberta/BC it's 110 km/h.


I used to want a higher speed limit until I moved out West. People are always in a hurry in GTA while people out West people are so mellow. Just relax, leave a little early. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry traffic flow would move much faster.

Trucks are limited to 105 electronically. Different speed limits are legalized and practiced around the world (EU and USA, many states) with no safety disadvantages. Frankly, most ppl prefer to pass a truck much faster for safety (does anyone really want to take 30 seconds next to a big rig?)! Many get ticketed for speeding up next to a truck when passing (I've read a LOT of reports, many impoundments...). Go figure...

I think we need better driver training standards before we start raising the speed limit.


What would be better to see is to get the police to start ticketing left lane hoggers.

Do you think Taxans and Kansans get better training? I assure you they don't. I've lived there. 20 minutes to get a licence - not one year like over here (full one). Yet, really poor KS drivers get legal 120kmh and Texans 120-136 (136 just legalized in 2011, not implemented yet though). Read more on www.stop100.ca. KS drivers are much worse than ours, that's from my experience. They'll actually block left lane in front of you purposely to not let you pass. Seen it MANY times.

Other countries have the good sense to make driver training mandatory or extremely strict testing guidelines. In Canada we just keep adding length to the process, but the issue still remains that most new drivers are being taught by people who don't know a single good thing about driving. This isn't how you improve the driving of citizens and upping the speed limit will only compound the issue.


This initiative will never take off because the first group of people to back it are people who just want to go faster for the sake of going faster. That is not a reason to increase a speed limit. If you could prove that IN CANADA it would actually be beneficial, then you gain traction. At this point it's a bunch of a people pointing to other places and saying "SEE! They do it!"

The reason to up the limit is to make something that's currently safe (driving at 120-130) LEGAL. Right now you can get ticketed for 125 and definitely for 130 outside GTA.


Same comment as above. TX, UTAH much higher limit and very poor training. No dramatic safety issues. We are so over-exaggerating our case. Ppl here can easily handle 140. I constantly see such speeds and never felt endangered. Drive from Oshawa to Newmarket or Barrie - never been even close to an accident when surrounded by cars at 130-140, so not sure where bashing of ON driver comes from (at least compared to worse american drivers whose gov't give them higher limits)

I am pretty slow, but the speed limit change would have no effect on any driver's habits.

So why are so many bikers (and others) so opposed to legalizing 120-130? I've presented the same argument on www.stop100.ca - many jurisdictions have experienced the same thing (avg speed on NO LIMIT autobahn = 140km/h! despite the fact everyone CAN do 150-200-300-unlimited legally)
Yet, I get a LOT of sh&* for proposing a change as "people can't drive with the limit we have now and you'd be inviting them to go even faster". Again.. go figure... So much chicken-**** talk... The driving habits would not change dramatically. But more drivers would do this legally. That is the point of this campaign. Legalize current habits and forget insurance premium hikes for 130km/h

I agree with everything you said but that has nothing to do with truckers and old folks needing to drive slower. So again, if other countries can do it (including the enhanced driver training and licensing) then why can't we?

Because for some reason many Ontarians (some members of such forums) believe we are an inferior race. When I claim our drivers are not that bad and I see no accidents on 407 and 401 express at 145km/h - people throw so much ^&&^ at me, it's really not funny. When I claim other states with worse drivers can do this and we let the gov't screw us with the lowest limit on Earth, JC200 tells me "it's not world-wide, it's Ontario". Speechless...

Germans can do it because.... they are smarter, they follow rules and are policed into doing so, drive better cars, make people good drivers before letting them loose on the streets, have better roads. They don't have old people or trucks.


Canadians can't drive 20km faster on a major hwy because... we are stupid, we are so set in our backwards ways it's too hard to change, 80-100-120-130-160 who cares it's overrated, We are unable to build good roads...just the people who built the 407 can, we have new Canadians giving driving instructions to new drivers, too many old people and trucks in Canada. We are scared it's too fast omg the carnage!!! Most motorcyclists are quite happy with the speed limits as it is anyways.

Once again - we're not that stupid if driving at 120-140 every day produces decent safety effect as mentioned on MTO's own website. We're not nearly as good as some EU countries - that DOES not mean we need 100km/h speed limit when most of us can handle much higher speeds with no sweat (again MTO says our roads are safe - I never felt endangered myself).

i would rather be able to do 140 and not feel like a complete criminal...


right now its very risky hovering around 140-150 on highways...which is a very acceptable cruising speed for bikes.


so if it was 120, i wouldnt immediately switch and start riding 160.


most people would still ride/drive to what the road is meant for..IE 120!


bottom line, no carnage no issues. Just less revenue generation for the government

PRECISELY MY CASE AND MY FIGHT - so go and support it www.stop100.ca and LIKE it on facebook to show some support numbers - I've gotten so much crap though from this forum stating similar stuff it's not even funny. You and kool and a few others show some basic understanding - if many of us drive at 130 - don't make it illegal. Make speed limit 120 and add 10km tolerance. I'd personally make it 130 + 10kmh tolerance, but I know this won't fly (even 120 gets some opposition). We definitely should not have a very low limit + 20-25kmh tolerance as it is right now. Leaves toooo much discretion in cop's hands and unclear rules of the road and driver confusion. I don't know if cops in Oshawa ticket at 118, 120 or 125...?? I really don't know...

I would like to hear a cops opinion on that being an acceptable speed for any vehicle. Heck not even emergency vehicles travel those speeds with lights going. They realize their danger goes up the faster they go.

Spoke to a few. One said she drives 125 (and that's prob because she as a cop shouldn't drive faster as it would not look good on her record if caught). If cops say 125 is safe and prove that with 20-25 tolerance then in my view (and many others) speed limit should be exactly that 120-130. Ticket people above that SAFE limit.

So OP, you have learned that GTAM can be a strange place, eh? ....


Some of the replies make me shake my head, but it's GTAM so why be surprised. The comparison to Germany .... it's hard to use that in the same sentence forget about comparisons.

At the risk of unintentionally offending the reasonable bikers here or those who did not support the cause BUT were not hostile $%^& to begin with, yup, strange place - although I must tell you - I got a lot of support from this and other forums in terms of page LIKES and poll votes but there is always a groups of 2-3 vocal, nasty and rude #$%^ around. Again, good to see there are cool bikers here as well. Even if one does not support the idea, at least he/she does not need to poke fun or use offensive, rude language (like calling somebody a "chronic speeder" with many tickets just because I offer a change. wth??). "Speeding" is a relative term - if speed limit is 100 then we're all 'chronic speeders'. If speed limit is raised to 120-130, half of us won't be anymore...

As to Germany - I did not compare their highway driving skill - that one nation is probably quite good (due to their unique and rigorous autobahn rules enforcement and training). I've only used them to show that people will not always drive faster or exceed the limit (as claimed by many). If limit is set to a reasonable number (scientific 85-percentile theory), most drivers won't exceed it by much. That was to calm down those who claim with 120kmh speed limit all people will go 150-160... Germans with no limit at 50% of their highways produce 140km/h average with most cars moving at 130-135.

Sorry..I'm still not getting it really, I go at 120kmh, which is 74mph, and have done for 16 years with no problems at all, if I did that speed in the UK, with arguably much stricter licensing, I'd be facing heavy fines every day. They have a strict 70mph max enforced by speed cameras and radar. With driving attitudes here if you raised the limit officially to 120kmh...you'd have idiots pushing their regular limit up another 20kmh. The max on french highways is 110kmh, still lower than our official max speed. The US, many places are 65mph, still lower than our unofficial max speed and very strictly enforced.


Another way of asking this question is, do you want the limit raised to 120kmh (actually more likely 110 kmh if you follow other countries) with a no tolerance policy at anywhere above that, with speed cameras and photo radar? Or do you want to continue with an unofficial policy which has a speed maximum above that of most other countries?

Max in France is 130km/h not 110. Most of Western Europe has limits ranging from 120-130 and they're not all great drivers, trust me. I hold an EU license so I speak from experience. Yes, better lane courtesy and usage of mirrors but not much else (they are much more aggressive drivers too, way more than us)

Don't get me wrong, 120 would work fine on a lot of our highways. It's just that saying "we should allow 120 because country x does" is an oversimplification of a complex bunch of interactions that result in our drivers behaving the way they do.

We used to have a limit of 112km/h or 400-series. And since ppl drive 120-140 today AND many countries/states allow that as well (including those with bad driver training), then why must Ontario be so behind and ticket at 130 if roads are quite safe (according to MTO)?? Again, KS drivers are horrible and limit is 120 + 8 tolerance , so 130 is relatively safe for cruising. Not here.. outside of GTA ticket most likely guaranteed! (despite much better ON driving etiquette when compare to KS)




Anyhow, if anyone still supports the case, show it on facebook. This way we can get verifiable numbers behind this.


www.facebook.com/stop100


www.stop100.ca

 

[psycho44]

I'd like to see them turn the TransCanada into an autobahn. That way I can get home in a day. With a country as big as Canada we should have higher speed limits outside of the city to get to places faster.

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