Having kids, father gets no say ?

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CruisnGrrl said:
both abortion and pregnancy/child birth are hard on a woman's body... no risk to the man either way, thus the man's say is minimal.
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Sorry but if I ever got pregnant I know I could never live with killing a living being (I know theres debate on that, this is my opinion) therefore I'm carrying to term. Its our child yes, but my body it uses to grow. My bone structure that changes my hormones that get ****ed up. But as far as I am concerns as soon as theres a baby in the picture then **** my needs, I need to think about whats best for it. At this point I could provide for a baby. Would be hard and I'd work my *** off, but I have the maturity etc to do it, therefore cannot justify killing a child.

But then to each their own. Thats me. I believe people have the right to choose.

But in terms of buddy, sorry but remember sex ed when they taught you sex can equal children.... he shouldnt have skipped that day. I like sex as much as the next person but there are risks involved.... he cant play dumb now. It takes two.

Besides I know people who had unplanned kids and are happy as can be. It has made life more difficult but more rewarding. As freaked out as I'm sure he is... it might end up being the best thing to happen to him.

rafiki911 said:
+1 and if he never wanted children he should have gotten snipped...
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Actually I know people who wanted it done but its harder to do that said. They wont snip a young person as you might change your mind. They wont do it till your over 40 unless you fought hard enough.
 
No. He had the choice to not mess with the merchandise and he played with it.
He broke it, he bought it!
 
This is an interesting thread
For all the folks that think if the girl is on the pill and your wearing a raincoat she cant get pregnant. You would be wrong. There is no such thing as 100% safe.
The girl gets to make the decisions, since we waved all rights to make decisions the moment the little head was thinking for the big head.

It's not about being fair, its about being responsible and the bigger picture of unforseen consequence of our actions. I'm not a pro-lifer, and I truly feel for the guy in this situation. If he "mans up" and marries her the odds on it working are very limited. Then it gets messier and more costly. The past now doesn't matter, the deed is done. He needs to explain to this girl if he doesnt get an education his ability to provide care and support in the future will be limited, hopefully she was in favor of his getting an education.
If she got pregnant on purpose, its not the girl you'd ever want to marry, but your now in a relationship.

This happens several hundred times a year in Ontario, your friend is not alone. The laws here are pretty clear on how this will work for him going forward, he needs to focus on keeping the relationship positive whether he wants to be involved or not, his options get even more limited if she gets vindictive and bitter.
 
fastar1 said:
Sure, and she chose to have sex with her body, with full knowledge of the risks. Now the fetus is shared property, not hers.
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this thinking is completely flawed. It's not like two people buy a car, and break up, so the gril says I don't want the pos, I am going to scrap it, the guy says I want it, so she tells him, fine, but take it off my driveway, the guy says I will in 9 months. So now two things can happen. 1. the girl scrapes the car after a few weeks. 2. she keeps the car for 9 months, washes it, takes it for drives so it isn't just sitting there, and finds it's not running right, she has it fixed, ect after 9 months she says, she wants to keep it, since she took care of it, and is now attached to it. Point being, that logic only works with property that can be immediately taken away.
 
Your buddy is either extremely unlucky or his girl played him if they always used a condom AND birth control.. Sux for him but it's her body if she refuses to get rid of it. This is making me reconsider all the times "not pulling out" with chicks just on BC, guess I got lucky so far.
 
crankcall said:
This is an interesting thread
For all the folks that think if the girl is on the pill and your wearing a raincoat she cant get pregnant. You would be wrong. There is no such thing as 100% safe.
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I've had this happen. I was dating a girl and neither of us wanted kids. I was so paranoid I wore a dome even though she was on the pill. Well all it took was one broken condom and her doctor failing to tell her that the pill is rendered ineffective while on anti-biotics for a cold.

Lucky for me we both felt the same way as she was going off to teachers college and I was starting my new career having just finished school. We would have had a 10 year old now and I am so thankful we agreed that it wasn't in anyones best interest (it wasn't the most stable relationship. She was a little crazy and so was I).

I now have 2 wonderful children ages 4 and 16 months whome I devote every moment to. I have a wonderful wife and a really happy life and great career. My ex is engaged and we don't really keep in touch. I couldn't imagine a shared custody situation or having her still in my life (crazy).

Sorry for the personal story but I wanted to share an opposing view about abortions to many here. accidents happen. There are too many kids already in this world with ****ed up home lives and parents who don't care or resent them for changing their lives. I just think of how that situation would have been different than the family I chose to have and prepare for. Having a kid is tough under the best circumstances.

People are so concerned about aborting a collection of cells with no conciousness yet how many people donate to childrens organizations to take care of the unwanted kids and unsupported kids that are born due to people having children under the wrong conditions.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys, definitely an interesting debate.

My friend came over again last night, just cause him and the girlfriend are obviously fighting now. I've know her myself for years, we all went to highschool with eachother, nearly a decade ago now. I asked him about getting a DNA test, but we both know she wouldn't sleep around, she's a home body ( maybe why she wants the kid ? ) and the thought of asking her for a DNA test would just put more fuel on the fire. Guys been saving for University for a few years now, and wanted to get the job, obviously to make more money for the both of them, and have a decent life as a career ( he's currently working at a lovely call center ). However now, she doesn't care if he has to leave University, she feels the money he saved is easily sufficient for taking care of a baby, she is not seeing the big picture, she's got the baby blindness.

As for the condom + birth control and still having a kid, nothing is 100%. My girlfriends sister is a " miracle " baby, as her mom had her tubes tied, but she still got pregnant. Nothing is ever 100%. It's definitely un-expected, and I think he is going to stay around..... but he has been working this dead end job for a few years now, and HATES it... and was so looking forward to going back to school and doing something he enjoyed. However now.... it's looking like he has to keep working to support them. You see these " un-expected " pregnancies, and it's so easy to point the finger, or tell him to " man up " and so fourth, but there is always more to the story.
 
oilycreek said:
You make some good points, but until man can carry a baby full term, it's her body, and her choice. We may not like it if she chose an abortion, but it's not our business.
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I'm no medical expert, but what if the man found a surogate to carry the baby to term?
 
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Dr.Manhattan said:
Thanks for all the responses guys, definitely an interesting debate.

My friend came over again last night, just cause him and the girlfriend are obviously fighting now. I've know her myself for years, we all went to highschool with eachother, nearly a decade ago now. I asked him about getting a DNA test, but we both know she wouldn't sleep around, she's a home body ( maybe why she wants the kid ? ) and the thought of asking her for a DNA test would just put more fuel on the fire. Guys been saving for University for a few years now, and wanted to get the job, obviously to make more money for the both of them, and have a decent life as a career ( he's currently working at a lovely call center ). However now, she doesn't care if he has to leave University, she feels the money he saved is easily sufficient for taking care of a baby, she is not seeing the big picture, she's got the baby blindness.

As for the condom + birth control and still having a kid, nothing is 100%. My girlfriends sister is a " miracle " baby, as her mom had her tubes tied, but she still got pregnant. Nothing is ever 100%. It's definitely un-expected, and I think he is going to stay around..... but he has been working this dead end job for a few years now, and HATES it... and was so looking forward to going back to school and doing something he enjoyed. However now.... it's looking like he has to keep working to support them. You see these " un-expected " pregnancies, and it's so easy to point the finger, or tell him to " man up " and so fourth, but there is always more to the story.
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Whatever your buddy has to do in order to go to school and finish DO IT! don't drop out. Our society has lots of helpful options out there and many universities have subsidized daycare for students. She can work then also to help bills.
 
Your buddy should stick to his plan, I don't see why this has to change everything for him.

Neither the girlfriend nor the courts can suck blood from a stone. If he doesn't have money to pay child support, they can't take anything from him. He'll be broke going through college either way, so whatever. He has to sacrifice a few nights of drinking with friends, big whoop. He should pitch in whatever he can, because she'll be doing the same, but it shouldn't change his career/education goals.

If he doesn't see marriage/family with this girl, he should make that clear right away and pursue his goals as normal. Whether he likes it or not, he's gonna have a kid and at the very least a financial responsibility (if he doesn't want parental responsibility too) towards the child. But this shouldn't get in the way of his goals.

Bottom line is, he's made it clear in the past (presumably) that he doesn't want a child, so he's only responsible for a bare minimum of financial support. If he doesn't want to be a parent, that's his choice and she can't force him to be one. That's the choice he gets.
 
promac said:
I'm no medical expert, but what if the man found a surogate to carry the baby to term?
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How does that fix the financial and emotional obligation later.... also a surogate you need to still pay for medical bills the birth clothing etc. She might as well be the one pregnant.

Friend of mine back home was told she could never have kids.... two girls later...

As for birth control yeah theres a lot of things that render it useless. Gotta be careful. If I am not sure then I say something to the guy. But I've had doctors forget to tell me what affects it. Thank you to my pharmasist.
 
Gotta agree that he shouldn't give up school. If she's got baby blindless then play hardball with her. Ignore her and refuse to pay anything. Even if she drags him to court and he has no job then they can't garnish any wages. There will be a judgement granted against him, but that's based on his income. If he's in school and not working then he doesn't have to worry much about it.
 
Dr.Manhattan said:
Thanks for all the responses guys, definitely an interesting debate.

My friend came over again last night, just cause him and the girlfriend are obviously fighting now. I've know her myself for years, we all went to highschool with eachother, nearly a decade ago now. I asked him about getting a DNA test, but we both know she wouldn't sleep around, she's a home body ( maybe why she wants the kid ? ) and the thought of asking her for a DNA test would just put more fuel on the fire. Guys been saving for University for a few years now, and wanted to get the job, obviously to make more money for the both of them, and have a decent life as a career ( he's currently working at a lovely call center ). However now, she doesn't care if he has to leave University, she feels the money he saved is easily sufficient for taking care of a baby, she is not seeing the big picture, she's got the baby blindness.

As for the condom + birth control and still having a kid, nothing is 100%. My girlfriends sister is a " miracle " baby, as her mom had her tubes tied, but she still got pregnant. Nothing is ever 100%. It's definitely un-expected, and I think he is going to stay around..... but he has been working this dead end job for a few years now, and HATES it... and was so looking forward to going back to school and doing something he enjoyed. However now.... it's looking like he has to keep working to support them. You see these " un-expected " pregnancies, and it's so easy to point the finger, or tell him to " man up " and so fourth, but there is always more to the story.
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It may very well be that having the child is the wrong choice, but she has to figure that out for herself. If she's showing bad judgement now then it's still his fault for dipping it in her sauce to begin with.

He really only has one option; tell her that he'll support her decision but she needs to seriously hear him out. If they can't even do that much for each other then I dunno man... idiots, what can I say.
 
I think we need to have better sex education for men. Obviously guys don't really get how this thing works. They have some notion that this has to do with fairness or equality. It doesn't.

Here's the deal. Starting at puberty, girls bleed from their genitals on a monthly basis. In return, they get to be the source of new life. Tough deal, but it has its rewards.

We need to start teaching guys that although it's a lot of fun to stick their pole into as many girls as they can, they need to realize that when they do this, they are giving these girls a lot of power. They're giving them the seed, and the woman then has control of it. This is reality. No one ever said reality was fair.

Men can be bigger, stronger, have a bunch of advantages, but at the end of the day, it's the woman that controls childbirth. Plain and simple.

When you have sex with a woman, you're giving her the right to seriously mess with your life. This is what should be taught. Celibacy isn't natural? Well, making child support payments isn't natural either. I'm sure the cave men didn't have to worry about that.

The modern world is tough these days. People don't get married so young. People have more sexual partners as a result. There's lots of opportunity for this kind of stuff to happen. But that doesn't change the rules. You provide the seed, the woman controls the garden. Keep that in mind BEFORE you take a girl home from the club.

And don't EVER believe a woman who says she doesn't want kids. If you think celibacy ain't natural, what do you think of a woman saying something like that?

I've been there. Almost got trapped into something real bad with a crazy person. I got lucky, but I learned my lesson. I wish someone could have taught me in a less traumatic way, a lot earlier.
 
Duster929 said:
I think we need to have better sex education for men. Obviously guys don't really get how this thing works. They have some notion that this has to do with fairness or equality. It doesn't.

Here's the deal. Starting at puberty, girls bleed from their genitals on a monthly basis. In return, they get to be the source of new life. Tough deal, but it has its rewards.

We need to start teaching guys that although it's a lot of fun to stick their pole into as many girls as they can, they need to realize that when they do this, they are giving these girls a lot of power. They're giving them the seed, and the woman then has control of it. This is reality. No one ever said reality was fair.

Men can be bigger, stronger, have a bunch of advantages, but at the end of the day, it's the woman that controls childbirth. Plain and simple.

When you have sex with a woman, you're giving her the right to seriously mess with your life. This is what should be taught. Celibacy isn't natural? Well, making child support payments isn't natural either. I'm sure the cave men didn't have to worry about that.

The modern world is tough these days. People don't get married so young. People have more sexual partners as a result. There's lots of opportunity for this kind of stuff to happen. But that doesn't change the rules. You provide the seed, the woman controls the garden. Keep that in mind BEFORE you take a girl home from the club.

And don't EVER believe a woman who says she doesn't want kids. If you think celibacy ain't natural, what do you think of a woman saying something like that?

I've been there. Almost got trapped into something real bad with a crazy person. I got lucky, but I learned my lesson. I wish someone could have taught me in a less traumatic way, a lot earlier.
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x2

been there. Learned the hard way.

Couldn't just look it up on wikipedia haha

Nothing easy about this entire thing, but from the sounds of it, they don't sound like 18 year olds hard on their luck. (10 years out of highschool he said??)
 
Duster929 said:
I've been there. Almost got trapped into something real bad with a crazy person. I got lucky, but I learned my lesson. I wish someone could have taught me in a less traumatic way, a lot earlier.
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Amen to that!

Although nothing puts a relationship in perspective like a good pregnancy scare. I don't know why so many people spend so much time with people they see no future with.
 
The guy should just RUN!!!

Declare bankruptcy or something :D
 
What's awesome is when a guy raises kids for years, thinking they are his own only to find out they aren't and is still responsible for child support payments.

Eh, I still wouldn't trade away standing to pee and relative sanity for the right to choose whether to keep a kid or not.
 
thedirty said:
what's awesome is when a guy raises kids for years, thinking they are his own only to find out they aren't and is still responsible for child support payments.

Eh, i still wouldn't trade away standing to pee and relative sanity for the right to choose whether to keep a kid or not.
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jerry jerry jerry
 
This is an interesting debate. The problem is there is no right or wrong answer here. As they say, only shades of grey. For the record, I am pro choice.

Various people have made arguments about there should have to be an agreement for this type of decision. As someone who deals with these type agreements all the time, it is pretty easy to say, joint decisions don't work. In theory the concept works but once you have a disagreement, either one party has to decide, the other party has to decide or you have to have a third party (usually a judge) do it. I am definitely not in favour of having a third party make this type of decision.

In my view, in this grey area, it needs to be the woman's decision. She has far more at risk--childbearing is a lot safer than it was years ago but is far from risk free. Male "abortion" is a nice idea in concept, but the trouble is that one the child is born, it is no longer what the father wants vs. what the mother wants. There are now three parties. What is in the best interest of the child also comes into play. Except in the most extreme situations, it is in the best interests of the child to have two parents to love it and to take care of it and at a minimum, support it (I realize that kids are people and not its but I am trying to avoid the s/he style pronouns). The child is the most innocent of the three people in this triangle so in my view its interests should be given the most weight. I note that some posters have talked about the incompetent baby factory mommies who don't take care of their kids. That I do not support and as witnessed through the eyes of people who have gone through it, the courts need some serious reforms to make sure dads who are interested in their kids get a fair shake.

For a moment I would like to take the view of the fetus in this story. In a way, that was me. I was born a few months after my parents were married, when they were 18 and 19 years old. They are still married over 40 years later. Sometimes it does work out. In the circumstances, I consider my parents my heros. After I was born, my mom worked to put my dad through college and he worked to support us ever since. We were not wealthy when I was little but the we were happy and I was taught an excellent work ethic.

Going back to the original poster, your friend needs to talk some sense into his girlfriend relating to her perspective. Having a kid is not a life in itself it is just one part of a full life (in my view). The friend needs to get to school and whether he ends up with his current girlfriend, she will now be part of his life for a long time. He better get used to it and make the best of the situation. They got a long at one time so they know they can make it work (he certainly is in a better position than knocking up some random from a bar).
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