H-D kills off more models ? | Page 7 | GTAMotorcycle.com

H-D kills off more models ?

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Mad Mike said:
Personally I don't like timing belts. They are certainly quieter than gears and chains, but not nearly as long lived or dependable. Chains stretch and make the engine run rough before catastrophic failure -- belts just blow off and bang - engine failure.

They are obsolete in motorcycles. Honda GL bikes had 160,000 service intervals so they were OK, but eventually that was considered a nuisance on a motor that could go 400,000km, so Honda went to chains. Belts are still used on a Euro brand but due to the use of tiny pulley wheels, the belts need changing every couple of years or <40Km to the tune of $500.
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Belts get a bad rap because people mess around with them. There are better ways to get the job done for sure. Gears are best, chains better. Ducati stuck with belts because they are reliable (when not messed with) and simple to change. There is no doubt in my mind that they are capable of going 5 times the distance, but I've never tried to prove that. I've had lots of people ask how you know when they are worn out.Ugggh!
 
Mad Mike said:
I think they were out engineered. It's one thing to sell bikes, it's another to have the engineering capacity to design for dependable use and volume production.
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You obviously never had the opportunity to ride a Henderson.

Rubber belts to drive the valves might be something you guys would buy, not me, I had enough of those over the years thanks, you're not going to convince me they were great. Gear valve train drive is absolutely the best, chain I have some faith in because I have never had one fail me yet. ymmv.
 
Mad Mike said:
I think they were out engineered. It's one thing to sell bikes, it's another to have the engineering capacity to design for dependable use and volume production.
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Harley-Davidson was the model T Ford or Willys Jeep of motorcycles.

"During WWII, Harley-Davidson produced thousands of WLA motorcycles for the United States and it's Allies. Some sources estimate the total number of motorcycles at 70,000 units and enough spare parts to build 30,000 more. Other sources are more conservative, but the fact is, Harley-Davidson produced a lot of motorcycles for the military in the 1940's. This left a huge surplus of motorcycles after the war and with the motorcycle being phased out in favor of the Jeep 4x4, it wasn't until 1957 that the military placed another order for motorcycles with Harley-Davidson. This time they weren't interested in an combat ready machine, but instead a patrol vehicle to use on base. Harley's answer was the Sportster XLA." source: http: //www.ridingvintage.com/2013/10/harleys-last-true-military-motorcycle.html
 
Wingboy said:
Belts get a bad rap because people mess around with them. There are better ways to get the job done for sure. Gears are best, chains better. Ducati stuck with belts because they are reliable (when not messed with) and simple to change. There is no doubt in my mind that they are capable of going 5 times the distance, but I've never tried to prove that. I've had lots of people ask how you know when they are worn out.Ugggh!
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You might get lucky and run your belts way past service intervals, but the risks are huge. Time, operating temperature, routing, speed and mileage all factor into belt longevity - so many variables.

The problem with ‘worn out’ is you can’t tell with belts. Chains stretch, gears growl as they wear, giving lots of warning, plus they rarely fail catastrophically. Belts stretch a little, but that’s not something you can measure to predict the need to change, and when they fail there is no warning.
 
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Mad Mike said:
You might get lucky and run your belts way past service intervals, but the risks are huge. Time, operating temperature, routing, speed and mileage all factor into belt longevity - so many variables.

The problem with ‘worn out’ is you can’t tell with belts. Chains stretch, gears growl as they wear, giving lots of warning, plus they rarely fail catastrophically. Belts stretch a little, but that’s not something you can measure to predict the need to change, and when they fail there is no warning.
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Toothed belts are under tension and they can't stretch, they go BOOM when they do, followed by flying chunks of rubber and cord, at which point your pistons collide with your poppet valves and it makes a terrible mess. Then you go buy a new/used motor because that one is completely ******.
Replacement service intervals are shorter then chain drive units. You wore out and had to replace two or three of them, if you ever owned a VW Jetta turbo diesel or maybe even a Honda Civic Si for an appreciable length of time.
 
Trials said:
Toothed belts are under tension and they can't stretch, they go BOOM when they do, followed by flying chunks of rubber and cord, at which point your pistons collide with your poppet valves and it makes a terrible mess. Then you go buy a new/used motor because that one is completely ******.
Replacement service intervals are shorter then chain drive units. You wore out and had to replace two or three of them, if you ever owned a VW Jetta turbo diesel or maybe even a Honda Civic Si for an appreciable length of time.
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TDI interval is ~200,000 km for the belt. I normally change the belt once and then never again. Sure, it may grenade at 450K but getting the timing belt done is $1100. Most people buying a 400K plus car are not going to pay extra because it has a new timing belt.
 
GreyGhost said:
TDI interval is ~200,000 km for the belt. I normally change the belt once and then never again. Sure, it may grenade at 450K but getting the timing belt done is $1100. Most people buying a 400K plus car are not going to pay extra because it has a new timing belt.
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Most buyers don't even know what a timing belt is. ... until they live through that experience, then they have some idea. Most car sales people when you ask don't even know the answer without wanting to check, because it's not like they would know what to look for.
 
Trials said:
Most buyers don't even know what a timing belt is. ... until they live through that experience, then they have some idea. Most car sales people when you ask dont even know the answer without wanting to check, because it's not like they would know what to look for.
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I’ve had several VWs over the years, two let go of timing belts. An 80 Rabbit Diesel at 140k and a 2000 Beetle 1.8t. That let go a replacement at at 80k.

it’s not just mileage, age and service impact life. Manual shift cars tend to be harder on belts. Belts also age out, I’d replace after 8 years regardless of mileage.

It’s hard to tell if a belt has been replaced. A service invoice will list parts and mileage, a decent mechanic will mark the date and mileage on the timing belt or intake cover.
 
Mad Mike said:
a decent mechanic will mark the date and mileage on the timing belt or intake cover.
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A less reputable mechanic/salesperson will make a similar mark without bothering to touch the belt. I agree, unless someone is playing with fire and it is actively falling apart, it is hard to tell if it is new or just about to die.
 
Totally for the purpose of building an engine more cheaply.

Ever tried to push a motorcycle with a belt final drive, they don't push easy.
H-D puts a belt final drive on their production bikes, totally for the purpose of building a motorcycle more cheaply.
& don't be telling me H-D cares about the less vibration, it's just selling the only sales advantage of a belt final drive. If H-D was actually designing and building highly engineered product their motorcycles would have shaft drive.

lol or electric by now.
 
Mad Mike said:
I’ve had several VWs over the years, two let go of timing belts. An 80 Rabbit Diesel at 140k and a 2000 Beetle 1.8t. That let go a replacement at at 80k.

it’s not just mileage, age and service impact life. Manual shift cars tend to be harder on belts. Belts also age out, I’d replace after 8 years regardless of mileage.

It’s hard to tell if a belt has been replaced. A service invoice will list parts and mileage, a decent mechanic will mark the date and mileage on the timing belt or intake cover.
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I've never really considered VW's to be reliable vehicles overall, IMHO. Having a belt fail at the replacement interval is ridiculous.

In the ST world the 1100 has a 160,000 km replacement interval and it's a pretty easy job to due. Most owners report the belt looks like new and in years of following ST forums I've never heard of one failing. There was one incident of a water pump bearing seizing that caused the belt to fail and this resulted in bent valves.
 
... you can bet the bent valve was not the only damage, it was bent because the piston smashed into it.
 
Top end disasters are kind of boring anyway, compared to throwing a con rod out the bottom of your crankcase, that's way more exciting, big bang, hot oil goes everywhere, lots of smoke, then there is a brief moment of silence just before the swearing starts.
 
Would like to be a fly on the wall in the engineering dept.

Employee: Hey, check this idea out.i can hide the coolant in the.....
Manager: Get back to work on the belt buckles.
Employee: This new counterbalancer can...
Manager: The colours of the bustiers are wrong. Do it again.
 
Lets bring this thread back to ******** on harley:

Question:
Why do all the chicks who ride harleys look like bartenders from 1982?
 
bigpoppa said:
Lets bring this thread back to ******** on harley:

Question:
Why do all the chicks who ride harleys look like bartenders from 1982?
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Damn funny. I had a commerce TA in uni that fit the mold. Chipped front tooth, lower back problems if you know what I mean and leather clothing. Was a HOG member since high school. She dreamed of owning her own one day. For now, she just used her assets to get on the pillion seat of others. She would travel to rallies and was all in on the HD lifestyle.
 
Let me see now :unsure: why would a girl, want to ride a paint shaker
 
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