Just a temporary correction. Everybody the world over will be working for same wages eventually. All the dumm factory jobs will come back and grade 8 dropouts will once again rule.
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Generation Jobless
- Thread starter KarGo
- Start date
johnp
Well-known member
It's not easy to figure out what to do for a living and how to prepare for it.
[1] There's no good way to figure out what to do for a living, at the point where it probably matters most - when you're deciding what to study. At that age you know maybe firefighter, doctor, nurse, policeman ..... you get the idea. I remember as a kid looking at an ad for "Production Supervisor" and wondering, WTF is that? Now we all realize there are jobs you wouldn't have imagined (maybe didnt even exist) that you would love to try.
[2] since [1] is so uncertain and the world keeps changing you're SAFER if you keep going to school as long as you can. Whatever you're doing now might be gone in 5 years and the smarter and faster you are the more likely you are to stay in the game.
In particular a lot of jobs (e.g. in financial services) now demand TWO degrees. Also apparently time spent getting a Masters degres is the best spent of all time at school. You spend 17 years to get one degree and 2 more years to get another degree.
Sure Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't graduate but modelling yourself after them is not a good plan.
[1] There's no good way to figure out what to do for a living, at the point where it probably matters most - when you're deciding what to study. At that age you know maybe firefighter, doctor, nurse, policeman ..... you get the idea. I remember as a kid looking at an ad for "Production Supervisor" and wondering, WTF is that? Now we all realize there are jobs you wouldn't have imagined (maybe didnt even exist) that you would love to try.
[2] since [1] is so uncertain and the world keeps changing you're SAFER if you keep going to school as long as you can. Whatever you're doing now might be gone in 5 years and the smarter and faster you are the more likely you are to stay in the game.
In particular a lot of jobs (e.g. in financial services) now demand TWO degrees. Also apparently time spent getting a Masters degres is the best spent of all time at school. You spend 17 years to get one degree and 2 more years to get another degree.
Sure Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't graduate but modelling yourself after them is not a good plan.
Not all factory jobs are dumb, that is just you showing your ignorance. Mindless assembly/production work can be a very mind numbing boring experience but don't short change the many highly skilled tradespeople who are working in factories. Where I work we have 250 tradesmen and 2 tradeswomen doing a very specialised field of tool and die making that has all but disappeared in North America and the developing nations do not have the skill sets or experience to do it correctly. There are rarely any highschool dropouts in skilled trades apprenticeships now because grade 12 education is a mandatory prerequisite and now pre-apprenticeship courses are becoming mandatory requirement.
Since that specialised field has disappeared, where did it go if not China?
Easy there mate, I was talking about all the dumm factory production jobs that can be done by grade 8 dropouts (there were many and they paid ok), not all jobs that are done in factories fall into this category.
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OpenGambit
Banned
a lot of misunderstanding about manufacturing markets here.
One. China is an prime example of a country that knows exactly what it is doing economically. Politically is something else and not relevant here.
China first - compete on price, use lower prices to attract low tech contracts, at first, this was industries like textiles.
This helps them build a manufacturing base and train workers using cheap labour contracts. Now, the Chinese textile industry can make extremely high quality stuff, expertise that is now lost in the workforces of other countries.
More importantly, they have build a workforce that is accustomed to the industrial engine. Real wages in China has risen ( get this ) over 500 % in the last 5 years for an average person. The average factory worker in China in the southeast used to make 1000 per month, now its close to 5000 (RMB). - Full disclosure, I have business interests in China, thats why I know.
Now they are graduating their manufacturing, textiles factories are being pushed away to other countires that are even cheaper (but producers actually like to stay in China because they have expertise), but the central government is smart, and they can do math - they wonder how many shirts they have to sell to buy an iphone, how many sweaters they have to make to buy an airplane).
So they court gradually higher tech contracts, companies like foxconn gets created, they learn the tech, and they move on, they are creating their own ship building, car manufacturing and heavy industry. Yes they suck at it right now, but like everything else, they will get better.
meanwhile, the US is trying to repatriate their t shirt making? That is so beyond stupid. You move on to the next thing, you do what no one else can do, the US Should know better than anyone else that the new economy is about innovation, but now they are behind in a lot of other things, renewable energy for example.
The concept of bringing low tech manufacturing jobs back into the country, is among the dumbest economic planning items I can think of, but hey its popular with the voters. Anyone that thinks Canada will be better off because there are jobs that pay 30 bux an our to screw in a nut, is out of their tree. Our professionals ( accountants, engineers, architects, lawyers, bankers ) are more in demand than ever. Get a degree that doesn't suck, be ready to move or learn a different language, and you'll be getting paid boatloads of money in no time.
Personally, I am a capital markets lawyer with expertise in energy companies. I could go anywhere and scrap out a living. our clients are 100 % international because hey get this - the TSX has more public energy companies than any other exchange. I could go to Dubai, UAE, the US, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong - to name a few.
and to tie it all in. I did my research, I talked to people in the field, I know what I wanted, I got the education I needed, I got straight As, and I had job offers years before I graduated. So really, i have nothing but love for universities. The accessability of university has allowed the population to break class barriers that could not be broken before, and given people choices they never had before. It doesn't mean its a good choice for everyone, but I don't get the university hate in this thread. I really don't.
One. China is an prime example of a country that knows exactly what it is doing economically. Politically is something else and not relevant here.
China first - compete on price, use lower prices to attract low tech contracts, at first, this was industries like textiles.
This helps them build a manufacturing base and train workers using cheap labour contracts. Now, the Chinese textile industry can make extremely high quality stuff, expertise that is now lost in the workforces of other countries.
More importantly, they have build a workforce that is accustomed to the industrial engine. Real wages in China has risen ( get this ) over 500 % in the last 5 years for an average person. The average factory worker in China in the southeast used to make 1000 per month, now its close to 5000 (RMB). - Full disclosure, I have business interests in China, thats why I know.
Now they are graduating their manufacturing, textiles factories are being pushed away to other countires that are even cheaper (but producers actually like to stay in China because they have expertise), but the central government is smart, and they can do math - they wonder how many shirts they have to sell to buy an iphone, how many sweaters they have to make to buy an airplane).
So they court gradually higher tech contracts, companies like foxconn gets created, they learn the tech, and they move on, they are creating their own ship building, car manufacturing and heavy industry. Yes they suck at it right now, but like everything else, they will get better.
meanwhile, the US is trying to repatriate their t shirt making? That is so beyond stupid. You move on to the next thing, you do what no one else can do, the US Should know better than anyone else that the new economy is about innovation, but now they are behind in a lot of other things, renewable energy for example.
The concept of bringing low tech manufacturing jobs back into the country, is among the dumbest economic planning items I can think of, but hey its popular with the voters. Anyone that thinks Canada will be better off because there are jobs that pay 30 bux an our to screw in a nut, is out of their tree. Our professionals ( accountants, engineers, architects, lawyers, bankers ) are more in demand than ever. Get a degree that doesn't suck, be ready to move or learn a different language, and you'll be getting paid boatloads of money in no time.
Personally, I am a capital markets lawyer with expertise in energy companies. I could go anywhere and scrap out a living. our clients are 100 % international because hey get this - the TSX has more public energy companies than any other exchange. I could go to Dubai, UAE, the US, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong - to name a few.
and to tie it all in. I did my research, I talked to people in the field, I know what I wanted, I got the education I needed, I got straight As, and I had job offers years before I graduated. So really, i have nothing but love for universities. The accessability of university has allowed the population to break class barriers that could not be broken before, and given people choices they never had before. It doesn't mean its a good choice for everyone, but I don't get the university hate in this thread. I really don't.
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You do know it's spelled DUMB right?
If it's economically viable there should be no problem with bringing low tech manufacturing jobs back. Not everybody in USA can work at innovation, high tech and renewable energy and the like. That's like saying everybody should get higher University learning. It's not realistic.
College and or Uni is never a waste of time or effort or money if you use it for what it is. Its an opportunity to meet LOTS of people and network. Job placements aren't about learning the job, its about meeting people in the industry you may wish to work.
Those jobs that never opened up, they didnt open up for you, somebody got it. The guy that was liked/new the super/owners friend got it. My last three jobs was recruitment because they knew me. I'm not that bright or skilled and a lot of people work way harder than me and I have the keys to the office.
I meet lots of Uni and college grads and co-op kids that are graduating, they could be top of thier class and be unemployable because they are socially retarded. We have lots of square holes at my office, but hammering round pegs into them doesn't work.
Never underestimate networking, knowing a guy that knows a guy is a lot better than blinding answering ads.
Those jobs that never opened up, they didnt open up for you, somebody got it. The guy that was liked/new the super/owners friend got it. My last three jobs was recruitment because they knew me. I'm not that bright or skilled and a lot of people work way harder than me and I have the keys to the office.
I meet lots of Uni and college grads and co-op kids that are graduating, they could be top of thier class and be unemployable because they are socially retarded. We have lots of square holes at my office, but hammering round pegs into them doesn't work.
Never underestimate networking, knowing a guy that knows a guy is a lot better than blinding answering ads.
Even the spell checker caught it but dammit, I'm having fun tonite.
OpenGambit
Banned
If the government has to "do something" to bring the jobs back, its not economically viable, that should be obvious.
Not necessarily.. Sometimes government aid can give a slight nudge, thus aiding their local industry in overcoming an initial obstacle. I don't personally believe that Canada can compete with cheap Chinese labor when it comes to industrial production, but we have vast natural resources that are either severely underutilized or severely undertaxed. The government could easily intervene to remedy either one of the 2 situations. We have more than enough resources to keep our population living a healthy middle class lifestyle instead of having to constantly learn how to make do with less.
As for domestic industries not being viable, that's partly true. They aren't viable compared to stuff produced by people being paid what would amount to slave wages over here. Tax the imports and it becomes economically viable and the producers can make a nice chunk of change while still paying their workers a living wage, for example
OpenGambit
Banned
Not necessarily.. Sometimes government aid can give a slight nudge, thus aiding their local industry in overcoming an initial obstacle. I don't personally believe that Canada can compete with cheap Chinese labor when it comes to industrial production, but we have vast natural resources that are either severely underutilized or severely undertaxed. The government could easily intervene to remedy either one of the 2 situations. We have more than enough resources to keep our population living a healthy middle class lifestyle instead of having to constantly learn how to make do with less.
As for domestic industries not being viable, that's partly true. They aren't viable compared to stuff produced by people being paid what would amount to slave wages over here. Tax the imports and it becomes economically viable and the producers can make a nice chunk of change while still paying their workers a living wage, for example
So the solution is to make me pay 3 times as much for a t shirt? No thanks. Infant industries are ok but there is no way I am going to subsidize domestic manufacturing of stuff that can be done cheaper elsewhere.
Slave wages? what a joke, they get paid enough to live a middle class lifestyle in the country where they work. Hence the 500 % increase in real wages I already spoke about.
Yes, we do have plenty of resources jobs that pay a lot of money - Oil rigs for example. But if people in Ontario are gonna sit on their hands and complain about manufacturing instead of packing their bags, well thats also not my problem, thats why the oil sands ships in tons of workers from abroad, because Canadians aren't taking the jobs.
But hey, its not like the country is working together. BC whines about pipelines and in the mean time everyone in canada suffers because AB is selling their oil at a 40 dollar a barrel discount. Maybe you can ask the government how it plans to make royalty money when it can't even figure out how to get market price. If BC was SMART, they would allow pipelines, and spend the billions of dollars to increase our refining capacity and put it right by the water - because thats where the money is -refined oil products, not pulling **** out of the ground. But as it stands, its actually BETTER for AB to send the oil down to the gulf of mexico instead the shorter distance to BC.
Maybe NA workers just need to realize they need to step up their game and make more valuable things/ be more productive instead of complaining.
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Venom01
Well-known member
This x100
These jobs require skill and know how and yet there is little money and room to move. The things these company's ask of you vs. the wages earned are quite the joke. My skills are in real custom interiors. I build stuff you can't just go out and buy. I've always worked within my family's buissness which as taken a hit over the past few years. I've looked into getting work at other company's, but I can't believe what theywant me to do for them vs. The wages they want to pay me. For instance one company was very interested in having me as a shop manager, looking after a crew of 15 very under experienced workers, all which came from some sort of temp agency. I was told that the crew would be replenished every 3 months. They wanted me to do this all for $14 an hour. That was the best job offer I found, however I never looked for too long. My younger brother is sort of in the same position. He pretty much runs the mill shop of a company that has him often work late hours and sends him off to places like Montreal to over see installations at no more then $15 an hour. So while the trades are "starving" for skilled labours they don't seem to be too interested to paying for it.
Oh and my friend sitting next to me right now wanted me to add something for him. If any of you are going to school for graphic design, quit now and pick something else, the market is full.
This is my signature
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I agree that completely ignoring wider market realities wouldn't be the optimal solution but I am saying that it's possible. The way things are right now, Canadians will have to learn to live with less and bring their lifestyles closer to the level of Chinese workers. We can delay that with a combination of protective measures and social conscience (I, for example, don't mind paying a bit of a markup by buying goods that are as local as possible as I know that it benefits me indirectly, but too many of our consumers are too shortsighted to see beyond the bottom line), but if we keep running things the way we are running them, eventually, we'll have to resort to being packed in rented shoeboxes, eating less and many of us not having personal transportation.
Unlike many other countries, Canada has both vast mineral resources and the means to exploit them effectively, while keeping the wolves at bay. Yes, the AB oil is being sold way below market rates and it's way undertaxed. Maybe we could learn a bit from Norway on that topic. Another big issue is that claims are often allowed to lay fallow while owners camp on them either so they can speculate or to keep others from exploiting them. We could change that, too. There could be direct government involvement in resource exploitation on some scale. It works for Chile and these people swing right of the Yanks if that's even possible. The problem is that there is a lack of political will to go against the free market where the big guys get bigger and to hell with the little guy.
Unlike many other countries, Canada has both vast mineral resources and the means to exploit them effectively, while keeping the wolves at bay. Yes, the AB oil is being sold way below market rates and it's way undertaxed. Maybe we could learn a bit from Norway on that topic. Another big issue is that claims are often allowed to lay fallow while owners camp on them either so they can speculate or to keep others from exploiting them. We could change that, too. There could be direct government involvement in resource exploitation on some scale. It works for Chile and these people swing right of the Yanks if that's even possible. The problem is that there is a lack of political will to go against the free market where the big guys get bigger and to hell with the little guy.
OpenGambit
Banned
I absolutely do not consider it a matter of social conscience or moral imperative to subsidize non competitive industry.
Thats just welfare, hell its worse than welfare because you are draining labour from the sectors that actually need it, by supporting sectors that should not exist. So no, I think its stupid to pay more for a locally made t shirt so some guy can keep a job that doesn't do anything for the country, while some other industry which is starving for labour ships in a worker from overseas.
Protective measures? That can only be justified in strategic industries such as food, or infant industries like renewable energy. The concept that I should take money I earned in an industry that makes money so I can support some other guy that couldn't be bothered to learn to do something that ppl actually need, is just straight up dumb.
Maybe Canadian workers should think about how they are going to justify their wage instead of acting like its their god given right. If you want to make 30 bucks an hour, I suggest you create value that deserves it. This whole OMG the life of the Canadian worker getting closer to China is the biggest amount of ********* I have ever heard. Ppl that say that have no idea what life in China is actually like, and the reality is, the reverse is true. Their lifestyles are moving towards ours a thousand times faster than ours are moving towards theres, if our lifestyles have even moved at all.
Thats just welfare, hell its worse than welfare because you are draining labour from the sectors that actually need it, by supporting sectors that should not exist. So no, I think its stupid to pay more for a locally made t shirt so some guy can keep a job that doesn't do anything for the country, while some other industry which is starving for labour ships in a worker from overseas.
Protective measures? That can only be justified in strategic industries such as food, or infant industries like renewable energy. The concept that I should take money I earned in an industry that makes money so I can support some other guy that couldn't be bothered to learn to do something that ppl actually need, is just straight up dumb.
Maybe Canadian workers should think about how they are going to justify their wage instead of acting like its their god given right. If you want to make 30 bucks an hour, I suggest you create value that deserves it. This whole OMG the life of the Canadian worker getting closer to China is the biggest amount of ********* I have ever heard. Ppl that say that have no idea what life in China is actually like, and the reality is, the reverse is true. Their lifestyles are moving towards ours a thousand times faster than ours are moving towards theres, if our lifestyles have even moved at all.
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Bottom line is that the Canadian worker doesn't care how much a Chinese worker is paid. The only thing the Canadian worker cares about is what he can do with what he's paid over here. When just the taxes on his house take $2 out of his hourly wage, another $2 goes out for gas, another $1 for car insurance, just so he can make it go to work, his $14 per hour start looking pretty bleak once it's time to pay for food, clothing, utilities, repairs and other expenses and that doesn't even get us to the topic of mortgage (lol, so sad it's actually funny) or entertainment because we're not robots.
I have been around the globe, both in countries where workers are paid more and where they're paid less than they are here and our workers are among the hardest working and most professional. It's a crying shame that many are working harder and more hours just to slow down the back-slide. While you may not be able to see it, earning several times over the median Canadian salary ($28,000 range), but about 70% of the Canadian workforce can, and an even bigger percentage of those who entered the workforce in the last decade or so is feeling the vise.
The situation that the average Canadian worker is in should be unthinkable considering the vast riches that our land has to offer if there was a political will to make sure they get utilized and that the owners (i.e. Canadian people) get a fair share of the profits, thus giving them disposable income, which in turn stimulates investment in our economy.
I have been around the globe, both in countries where workers are paid more and where they're paid less than they are here and our workers are among the hardest working and most professional. It's a crying shame that many are working harder and more hours just to slow down the back-slide. While you may not be able to see it, earning several times over the median Canadian salary ($28,000 range), but about 70% of the Canadian workforce can, and an even bigger percentage of those who entered the workforce in the last decade or so is feeling the vise.
The situation that the average Canadian worker is in should be unthinkable considering the vast riches that our land has to offer if there was a political will to make sure they get utilized and that the owners (i.e. Canadian people) get a fair share of the profits, thus giving them disposable income, which in turn stimulates investment in our economy.
I have no interest in Socialism, it didnt look like fun for the countries that tried it. I'm a happy Capitalist, importing, distributing and manufacturing here in happy Canada, and using all the forest products I can gleen from our abundant natural resources. The Federal and provincial and to a lesser degree municipal governments all have thier collective hands hands in my pockets plenty deep. We need more taxes on resources like I need third nipple.
Works pretty well for Norway - 2nd or 4th highest GDP per capita in the world but their oil gets taxed out on the way out and the manufactured goods get taxed on the way in, among the lowest Ginni indexes in the world. That means that they have lots of locals with disposable income and the private enterprises are also enjoying the fact by raking in the cash. There's absolutely nothing stoping us from enjoying the same lifestyle, other than the lack of will by those we hired to look out for all of us.
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