Enough of COVID...what are you doing to the house?

[Relax]

Ouch. Was looking at smart thermostat as enbridge rebate plus black friday takes a bunch off the price. House was only wired with four wire thermostat wire. The plan is to install a heat pump next year so I would like at least 8 wires, preferably a few more for spares or humidifier/erv control. No good route for adding a wire with finished ceiling in basement. I might be able to run up into attic, around soffit to garage, down garage wall, through wall into furnace room. That will need a bunch of wire. Being an idiot I was thinking thermostat wire would be cheap as it's thin copper. Nope. Five wire thermostat cable is $1/ft when you buy it by the spool. That may be enough to re-evaluate the project.

Such a stupid system. I don't know why nest or ecobee haven't gone to communicating units. Install a breakout box in the furnace room, use three wires up to thermostat for power, common and data. Done. Even if that was an add-on that doubled the price, it's still cheaper than installing more wire. As breakout box has some brains (to decode data), it would be easy enough for it to be the master device and could function without the input device Obviously sensing temp in the furnace room not the living area but better than nothing in a pinch. If they were smart, if it lost connection to input device it would run the fan for a few minutes an hour and check temp in the return air to decide whether to fire the furnace.

It can't be that hard to make my own communicating thermostat from scratch. Or maybe I can get away with just the breakout box. It grabs dumb signals from the existing thermostat (heat, cool or fan) and modifies them appropriately (which stage of heating, which stage of cooling, engage reversing valve, etc.). Have a second dumb thermostat in the basement wired in parallel set at 50F as a failsafe in case the smart box takes a dump. That's easier than making my own hardware input device and having to make communication work. Something like a raspberry pi connected to wifi with an IO board, relay board and a 24V transformer gets me most of the way there wrt hardware.

EDIT:
FWIW, given my expected use, Nest is the clear favorite at this time. In the past, ecobee was slightly ahead imo.

When they installed my Ecobee, I only had 4 thermostat wires, so they had to install an additional included module that converts the 4 wires to 5 on the furnace. I notice sometimes that the Ecobee says the fan and heat are running, but nothing is happening, and sometimes when I tell it to turn the fan off (when I change the filter) it doesn't stop immediately like my old thermostat used to. Not sure if that's an issue with the converter, or if it's just a delay in what the Ecobee is telling the furnace what to do. In any case, I plan on installing more wires so I can remove that converter, as well as tie everything together (HRV, humidifier, and future dehumidifier) with a real Indoor Air Quality controller to replace the Ecobee so they all work together based on interior and exterior conditions.

 

[mimico_polak]

When they installed my Ecobee, I only had 4 thermostat wires, so they had to install an additional included module that converts the 4 wires to 5 on the furnace. I notice sometimes that the Ecobee says the fan and heat are running, but nothing is happening, and sometimes when I tell it to turn the fan off (when I change the filter) it doesn't stop immediately like my old thermostat used to. Not sure if that's an issue with the converter, or if it's just a delay in what the Ecobee is telling the furnace what to do. In any case, I plan on installing more wires so I can remove that converter, as well as tie everything together (HRV, humidifier, and future dehumidifier) with a real Indoor Air Quality controller to replace the Ecobee so they all work together based on interior and exterior conditions.

Same with mine. My Ecobee seems to be working fine.

Had an issue earlier this week with excessive condensation on the windows, so reduced the humidifier setting on the Ecobee and for some reason I had ZERO min of running the fan without heat during the day...changed that to 30min or so. Everything is working fine.

Biggest problem is the heat sensor is in the living room, which is a sieve...so our bedroom and all upstairs rooms heat up like a mofo trying to heat up the entire house. I don't like the remote sensor but my give them another chance. Put it in our room and see how it affects the main floor.

 

[Mad Mike]

Ouch. Was looking at smart thermostat as enbridge rebate plus black friday takes a bunch off the price. House was only wired with four wire thermostat wire. The plan is to install a heat pump next year so I would like at least 8 wires, preferably a few more for spares or humidifier/erv control. No good route for adding a wire with finished ceiling in basement. I might be able to run up into attic, around soffit to garage, down garage wall, through wall into furnace room. That will need a bunch of wire. Being an idiot I was thinking thermostat wire would be cheap as it's thin copper. Nope. Five wire thermostat cable is $1/ft when you buy it by the spool. That may be enough to re-evaluate the project.

Such a stupid system. I don't know why nest or ecobee haven't gone to communicating units. Install a breakout box in the furnace room, use three wires up to thermostat for power, common and data. Done. Even if that was an add-on that doubled the price, it's still cheaper than installing more wire. As breakout box has some brains (to decode data), it would be easy enough for it to be the master device and could function without the input device Obviously sensing temp in the furnace room not the living area but better than nothing in a pinch. If they were smart, if it lost connection to input device it would run the fan for a few minutes an hour and check temp in the return air to decide whether to fire the furnace.

It can't be that hard to make my own communicating thermostat from scratch. Or maybe I can get away with just the breakout box. It grabs dumb signals from the existing thermostat (heat, cool or fan) and modifies them appropriately (which stage of heating, which stage of cooling, engage reversing valve, etc.). Have a second dumb thermostat in the basement wired in parallel set at 50F as a failsafe in case the smart box takes a dump. That's easier than making my own hardware input device and having to make communication work. Something like a raspberry pi connected to wifi with an IO board, relay board and a 24V transformer gets me most of the way there wrt hardware.

EDIT:
FWIW, given my expected use, Nest is the clear favorite at this time. In the past, ecobee was slightly ahead imo.

You might get lucky, try this.

Stat wires are often run without restraints, meaning they are not stapled to the house framing. I have successfully pulled new stat wires using the old wire as a pull. Try tugging from the stat end to see if the wire slips. If it does, you're lucky.

Or try one of these: Home - Fast-Stat

 

[Scuba Steve]

Funny thing is my super old ecobee has exactly what you're describing a control box on the furnace and then two wires to the thermostat

Sent from the future

 

[GreyGhost]

Funny thing is my super old ecobee has exactly what you're describing a control box on the furnace and then two wires to the thermostat

Sent from the future

Grrr. So they've made it worse with time.

 

[GreyGhost]

You might get lucky, try this.

Stat wires are often run without restraints, meaning they are not stapled to the house framing. I have successfully pulled new stat wires using the old wire as a pull. Try tugging from the stat end to see if the wire slips. If it does, you're lucky.

Or try one of these: Home - Fast-Stat

I'll try giving it a tug. If it moves a bit, I wll fully connect new wire to old so it if gets stuck part way through the process, I still have control. Thermostat to furnace isn't that far if I can take the direct route.

fast-stat is cool idea. I think they've gone off the rails on their product stack though. Way too many models. Just design/make one model that gives you something like 10 "wires" and sell thermostat, furnace and heat pump modules separately (or bundled). You need to buy the furnace and at least one more. Even their top option doesn't give me as many wires as I want. It gives me enough for a two-stage heat pump but steals the existing four wires in the process. I would like to add the wiring for the hp in addition to the existing four.

 

[Relax]

Looks like Ecobee somewhat "endorses" FastStat:

Help Centre

support.ecobee.com

So the new Ecobee's don't include the module (similar to Fast Stat) anymore? Their site is so horrible for information, yet another reason to look elsewhere when the time comes.

 

[GreyGhost]

Looks like Ecobee somewhat "endorses" FastStat:

Help Centre

support.ecobee.com

So the new Ecobee's don't include the module (similar to Fast Stat) anymore? Their site is so horrible for information, yet another reason to look elsewhere when the time comes.

Afaik, the ecobees include the thermostat and a module for the furnace to cheat and create a C wire without an extra physical wire. They spent too much money on trying to make it a smart speaker and lost the plot on trying to be a thermostat.

 

[nobbie48]

Wow. I have installed lights between joists before to gain some height but never that way.

Looks like he'd gain 2" minus the 1" sag.

 

[Baggsy]

Looks like he'd gain 2" minus the 1" sag.

Guess where the heavy massage chair is sitting upstairs.
I'll have to buy a 2x8.
There's another spot near the exterior wall where they cut a big chunk out, and then nailed a piece of paneling across the gap.
This means I need to figure out which system they used, so that I can put in the proper cross tees, rather then just nick the tips off.
Edit: Fortunately, the cross tees I have lock in nicely.

 

[nobbie48]

My buddy is buying the majority of his construction materials off Facebook Marketplace and Kijiji nowadays.

Drywall - $5/sheet down to $0/sheet because of some black spots. Turns out it's all moldy so he ended up paying to dump it.
Drywall - $7/sheet somewhere else for 50 sheets. He's going to pick up this weekend
Plywood - $30/sheet (same as the $7/sheet for drywall guy)
Electrical - on / off with smaller pieces for 50% or more discounted from retail
BATT insulation - off a contractor that overbought...50% off retail price

I'm sure some of it is stolen...but he doesn't care, and honestly not sure I would too at this stage. Ignorance is bliss, and it's some more running around...but big savings if you're willing to work for them.

Unless it's theft to order you might never know but I could never be comfortable having or using
something that was stolen. It would IMO make me a facilitator.

A friend bought an electronic instrument and needed a part. When he called the distributor they asked him for the serial number. He gave it and then got a call from the police. Fortunately he had a paper trail.

I know people that shop tool deals and part them out, getting what they want for almost free. Others just steal stuff or buy hot stuff.

The big box stores are OK with slave labour and predatory purchasing but we're supposed to have a conscience.

 

[daught]

Does anyone have some insight into cutting a cooktop into a wood countertop? in particular, the Ikea Vrena countertop, which is veneer over particle board. The Ikea manual shows a picture of a cooktop cut into it, but it does not have other details. Is it compatible with radiant or induction cooktops? Ikea cooktops, or any other brand? I am concerned that fiberboard and glue could combust.

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/assembly_instructions/vrena-countertop-oak-veneer__AA-1843141-10-2.pdf

 

[nobbie48]

Does anyone have some insight into cutting a cooktop into a wood countertop? in particular, the Ikea Vrena countertop, which is veneer over particle board. The Ikea manual shows a picture of a cooktop cut into it, but it does not have other details. Is it compatible with radiant or induction cooktops? Ikea cooktops, or any other brand? I am concerned that fiberboard and glue could combust.

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/assembly_instructions/vrena-countertop-oak-veneer__AA-1843141-10-2.pdf

I had an electrical question the floor staff couldn't answer and they gave me a number to call for tech support. I didn't use it so can't verify the competence of any assistance. Worth a phone call if that's the route you want.

Countertop options are limited to stone, plastics (Corian) and wood, including wood / glue mixes.

 

[timtune]

Does anyone have some insight into cutting a cooktop into a wood countertop? in particular, the Ikea Vrena countertop, which is veneer over particle board. The Ikea manual shows a picture of a cooktop cut into it, but it does not have other details. Is it compatible with radiant or induction cooktops? Ikea cooktops, or any other brand? I am concerned that fiberboard and glue could combust.

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/assembly_instructions/vrena-countertop-oak-veneer__AA-1843141-10-2.pdf

They do it all the time with laminate c/t on islands, or they did until people went stupid for stone.
Laminate c/t is wood dust and glue inside.

 

[crankcall]

ypour ok putting a cooktop into a wood countertop, just be sure to seal the cut edges REALLY well, over the years cooking accidents and pasta boilovers migrate.

 

[Mad Mike]

Changing a main floor laundry room into a shower room, relocating the laundry to the basement (mom and dad's house).

 

[daught]

Thanks for the cooktop info.

Back to the washing machine drain. The main drain(3") is right beside the hot water tank. If buddy cuts a Tee in the main drain, installs a p-trap and a standpipe, does he need to worry about venting the installation?

I stumbled over a reference that said it is not necessary to vent a fixture if it is within 5ft or less of the main drain.

Otherwise, I found a video that explains the p-trap and stack rules, and it also goes into installing an AAV.

 

[GreyGhost]

Thanks for the cooktop info.

Back to the washing machine drain. The main drain(3") is right beside the hot water tank. If buddy cuts a Tee in the main drain, installs a p-trap and a standpipe, does he need to worry about venting the installation?

I stumbled over a reference that said it is not necessary to vent a fixture if it is within 5ft or less of the main drain.

Otherwise, I found a video that explains the p-trap and stack rules, and it also goes into installing an AAV.

I have no idea about plumbing code. From a practical perspective, venting keeps water from being sucked out of the trap. Given that you have a 3' run with a ~3/4" drop and 1 1/2" pipe, I can't see a situation where water could seal that space and suck the trap water out.

 

[daught]

I have no idea about plumbing code. From a practical perspective, venting keeps water from being sucked out of the trap. Given that you have a 3' run with a ~3/4" drop and 1 1/2" pipe, I can't see a situation where water could seal that space and suck the trap water out.

The washer drain is by code a 2" pipe.

I looked at my friend's plumbing, which has a similar situation. He got a plumber to do it, and there is no vent. It might not be up to code, but it drains properly.

I found something that might interest others while installing a washer and laundry tub.
802.4.3.1 Laundry Tub Connection to Clothes Washer Standpipe https://media.iccsafe.org/news/icc-enews/2018v15n13/2018SC-IPC802.pdf

 

[GreyGhost]

You might get lucky, try this.

Stat wires are often run without restraints, meaning they are not stapled to the house framing. I have successfully pulled new stat wires using the old wire as a pull. Try tugging from the stat end to see if the wire slips. If it does, you're lucky.

Or try one of these: Home - Fast-Stat

Not lucky. I have a new plan. I am going to install the new thermostat in a different location. One where it is reasonably simple to get wires to and runs are shorter. Plan is to install two runs of thermostat wire so I have more than 10 wires to back of stat. Current nest maxes out at 10 (and once I add a heat pump, I will need them all) and a few wires as spares/future stat use. Even at 10 wires, it can only control the humidifier or HRV. I rarely use the humidifier so I will probably give it HRV control.

As I still have little faith in smart devices doing dumb tasks without failing, old thermostat will likely remain in place set to heat at 45F as a freeze stat.