Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[Roomie]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Sounds like a solid conclusion to me. Instead of the "FTP" statements maybe we should take a look at our riding habits as this could have easily been a car pulling out from a side street and had the same end result.

What? Common sense? Come on now this is gtam.

While the end result is tragic this could have easily been avoided. Time and a place. This apparently was neither.

 

[CafeRay]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I actually read the report:

Director Loparco concluded, “The forensic reconstruction of the events around the collision put the motorcycle’s speed at about 148 to 154 km/h just before it left a skid mark in a failed effort to avoid striking the cruiser. Its speed at impact was calculated to be about 142 km/h. Given the motorcycle’s speed, I rather suspect the motorcycle would not have been visible to the officer if indeed he checked the roadway in that direction before initiating his turn. A civilian witness’ evidence gives us some sense of this possibility when she recounts that the motorcycle could not be seen in her rear view mirror when she checked it 30 seconds before it passed her at high speed without any warning.

The witness scans her mirrors every 30 seconds? That's way too infrequent.

However, I still agree with Clayton Ruby that SIU investigations are difficult to trust when police refuse to allow an independent third party.

This statement:

In the end, it seems that one or more of the man’s speed, low lighting conditions and possible visual obstructions caused by construction work in the area, contributed to the collision that occurred.

Is insulting the intelligence of any reader a reaching for excuses. What contributed to the collision was a U-turning vehicle, which wasn't even concluded.

In the end, no one would have been killed if the rider was doing a reasonable speed, like many fatal SS bike accidents.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

When a rider chooses to ride at 150kph+ at night the rider then becomes responsible for what happens. There is just no way for a driver (any driver not just the cop in question) to anticipate this kind of speed... Imo, there is no way the cop can be charged in these circumstances...

No knock on the rider in question as I've been just as guilty of late night blasts but lucky enough to survive them.....

So at least now the police are free to do their job. They are mandated to conduct their own investigation post SIU.

It was clearly an illegal Uturn, so we can now expect a charge/conviction for that in the least.

I will be waiting patiently.

 

[Benny!]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

When a rider chooses to ride at 150kph+ at night the rider then becomes responsible for what happens. There is just no way for a driver (any driver not just the cop in question) to anticipate this kind of speed... Imo, there is no way the cop can be charged in these circumstances...

No knock on the rider in question as I've been just as guilty of late night blasts but lucky enough to survive them.....

Exactly. If you are doing something illegal to initial the accident ie speeding at retarded speeds, then there is no way the other party should be charged. Same with the other case downtown. Had the riders not been lane splitting the accident would never have happened.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

There will be no charges laid by YRP. Feel free to enlighten us how it is "clearly an illegal Uturn"? Last I looked at the HTA a uturn is ONLY illegal if it is completed in an area where there are NO u turn signs posted. There are no such signs in this area. Just because the uturn resulted in a collision does not make it illegal.

Secondly, the SIU is the one mandated to lay charges when they complete an investigation. Let's follow your supposition for a minute that YRP will now charge the officer. The FIRST defence witness will be the SIU investigators. The officers lawyers, will then ask why did you not charge my client? Their reply... likely... Our investigation revealed no wrong doing on the part of the officer. Defence turns to judge and says "your honor, I request a dismissal of all charges" Judge... Motion granted

As for your "running the number" on my story. I will elaborate. It was an unmarked cruiser, with just the small flashing lights located on the passenger visor, not a complete visi bar, (light bar on roof). secondly as Rob pointed out a vehicle traveling at that speed covers approx 40 meters per second. so it would have covered approx .5 km in less than 10 seconds. The speed with which it passed created a wind gust often equated with a passing tractor trailer, in that it caused my vehicle to move.

I used the term "a few seconds" perhaps it was 15 seconds, I had also just crested a grade on that section of the road which limited the distance behind which I could see. However 15 second mirror check is not unreasonable given I was traveling at the limit (actually 85 as that is what I set my cruise to on that roadway to avoid tickets), and when last checked there was no other vehicles visible to my rear.

Perhaps I'm wrong on the legalities of the Uturn, but in my training as an ACMZ license holder(heck even got a regional expert race license too), Uturns are not permitted on bends, near hills, or anywhere where you can't see at least 150M.

Can't see the SIU laying any HTA charges, I'm pretty sure they are just looking for criminal intent in Clay's death, can't see any reason why we wouldn't expect YRP to?

And for the numbers on your story, I was just using the data you provided about your speed over time until the car disappeared from your view.

Question for you. You just made a closing speed comparison relating to Clay's incident. Would you have made a Uturn in same situation?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok so you "can't make a U turn unless you can see at least 150m" At the speed the bike hit the cruiser it would have covered that distance in under 4 seconds. So tell me as a professional driver could you have done a mirror check, done a shoulder check and commenced your turn in less than 4 seconds? Remembering the bike struck the cruiser near the center post, (or approx middle of the cruiser). I would suggest that the officer began his turn in safety, (in that the vehicle would have been more than 150m from him when he commenced the turn.

Under these EXACT same circumstances, yes I would say I would have made the same turn. Again as Roomie posted earlier. Time and place. Had the rider not been riding at that rate of speed he would not have been in that place at that time. Also unless the witness was directly behind the cruiser, then we can conclude he was riding at that rate of speed for more than a few seconds not a quick blip of the wrist.

Perhaps I'm wrong on the legalities of the Uturn, but in my training as an ACMZ license holder(heck even got a regional expert race license too), Uturns are not permitted on bends, near hills, or anywhere where you can't see at least 150M.

Can't see the SIU laying any HTA charges, I'm pretty sure they are just looking for criminal intent in Clay's death, can't see any reason why we wouldn't expect YRP too?

And for the numbers on your story, I was just using the data you provided about your speed over time until the car disappeared from your view.

Question for you. You just made a closing speed comparison relating to Clay's incident. Would you have made a Uturn in same situation?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Very "astute" of Beverage who posted this at 12:50 pm on 25 Jun 2014. He actually had the scenario down to a T. He could have written the report and saved the SIU all the time and expense of an investigation.

This just in: The cop was simply doing a u-turn to respond to another call and misjudged the closing rate of the motorcycle due to the conditions (night time, single headlight on bike making it difficult to judge rate of speed, and excessive motorcycle speed). There was no malicious intent toward the rider whatsoever.

Okay, I made that up, but since everyone else is making up whatever stories they want I thought I'd join in.

Mods should lock this thread because it's just getting out of hand. Respect the fallen. Who are we to judge? We weren't there and we don't know what transpired.

 

[kellen]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Are we talking about looking in the mirror and shoulder check, and then change lanes/u turn four second later? Regardless of circumstance, that's negligent

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Are we talking about looking in the mirror and shoulder check, and then change lanes/u turn four second later? Regardless of circumstance, that's negligent

Go to a quiet street or parking lot and do just that; mirror check, shoulder check, and initiate a turn. I bet that you'll be half way through the turn, at the 4 second mark.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok so you "can't make a U turn unless you can see at least 150m" At the speed the bike hit the cruiser it would have covered that distance in under 4 seconds. So tell me as a professional driver could you have done a mirror check, done a shoulder check and commenced your turn in less than 4 seconds? Remembering the bike struck the cruiser near the center post, (or approx middle of the cruiser). I would suggest that the officer began his turn in safety, (in that the vehicle would have been more than 150m from him when he commenced the turn.

Under these EXACT same circumstances, yes I would say I would have made the same turn. Again as Roomie posted earlier. Time and place. Had the rider not been riding at that rate of speed he would not have been in that place at that time. Also unless the witness was directly behind the cruiser, then we can conclude he was riding at that rate of speed for more than a few seconds not a quick blip of the wrist.

4 seconds is quite a bit of time.

I'm tempted to seriously judge your sanity, when you say you would make similar Uturn, but I won't. I can tell that you definitely did not go to the scene while construction was set up. I know your answer would be very different if you saw the layout in person. There wasn't even enough room for a Uturn.

As a professional driver I would never attempt a Uturn there. I would of proceeded further along the road, and pulled onto the shoulder. I would have looked and proceeded once safe. I'm a bit of a grandpa driver though, drives my friends nuts.

Im not trying to say that Clay's speed is not a factor. It absolutely is, and if he was still with us, I would be expecting him to deal with the legal consequences.

The officer also contributed to the collision and made an illegal Uturn. He should have to answer to the HTA in the least.

Without doing any math, and just from spending time moving my personal vehicle around the scene, if I was in Clay's position, and doing the speed limit, the position of the cruiser would have forced me to take evasive/defensive action.

On a side note, if anything can be gained to readers of this in relation to their own riding, speed is never the cause of a collision, but it will certainly limit your options, and please, please, learn to master your front brakes! The rear, as pointed out in the SIU report, doesn't do much.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

No we are talking about the "rule" according to casacrow, that you aren't supposed to make a u turn unless you can see 150m down the road. Which may or may not be an actual rule. i was merely pointing out that at the speed with which the bike was traveling it would have covered that distance in less than 4 seconds. Then I asked him as professional driver if he could have done all those things, in that time frame. Not to mention whatever else may have been going on inside the cruiser, (radio going off dispatch terminal beeping etc, all of which are routine occurrences in a modern cruiser). I think back to my days when we ONLY had a single radio to monitor while still being expected to do everything else we had to do..lol

You may "think/believe/feel" it is negligent. But those who matter, (the investigators), disagree. It also doesn't meet the LEGAL definition of negligent.

I guess the rider traveling at almost double the speed limit, (which would have been riding WELL beyond his headlights), was not at the bare minimum reckless or irresponsible?? On the track that is perfectly fine in fact for most such as yourself that speed would be no doubt slow, but for a public road it simply can't be defended in ANY manner.

Are we talking about looking in the mirror and shoulder check, and then change lanes/u turn four second later? Regardless of circumstance, that's negligent

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Are we talking about looking in the mirror and shoulder check, and then change lanes/u turn four second later? Regardless of circumstance, that's negligent

Parked on side of road waiting to go into a yard right now. There is a truck blocking traffic up ahead. Saw several cars making Uturns. Just busted out the timer on my phone. It's not exact, but seems to take approx 2-3 seconds for cars to complete their Uturns.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

4 seconds is quite a bit of time.

I'm tempted to seriously judge your sanity, when you say you would make similar Uturn, but I won't. I can tell that you definitely did not go to the scene while construction was set up. I know your answer would be very different if you saw the layout in person. There wasn't even enough room for a Uturn.

As a professional driver I would never attempt a Uturn there. I would of proceeded further along the road, and pulled onto the shoulder. I would have looked and proceeded once safe. I'm a bit of a grandpa driver though, drives my friends nuts.

Im not trying to say that Clay's speed is not a factor. It absolutely is, and if he was still with us, I would be expecting him to deal with the legal consequences.

The officer also contributed to the collision and made an illegal Uturn. He should have to answer to the HTA in the least.

Without doing any math, and just from spending time moving my personal vehicle around the scene, if I was in Clay's position, and doing the speed limit, the position of the cruiser would have forced me to take evasive/defensive action.

On a side note, if anything can be gained to readers of this in relation to their own riding, speed is never the cause of a collision, but it will certainly limit your options, and please, please, learn to master your front brakes! The rear, as pointed out in the SIU report, doesn't do much.

Well here's a little math anyway. Let's ignore any speed zones that might have been put up as a result of the construction. If this occurred in the area that's 80 Kmh then at the limit you would cover 89m in 4 seconds. If this occurred in the 60 Kmh zone then at the limit you would cover 67m, in 4 seconds. At 148 Kmh you would cover 164m in the same time.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Parked on side of road waiting to go into a yard right now. There is a truck blocking traffic up ahead. Saw several cars making Uturns. Just busted out the timer on my phone. It's not exact, but seems to take approx 2-3 seconds for cars to complete their Uturns.

Timed from the point that they first check their mirrors and do a shoulder check, or from the point that they initiate the turn?

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Timed from the point that they first check their mirrors and do a shoulder check, or from the point that they initiate the turn?

Initiate their turn. The way they are driving it doesn't look like a whole lotta shoulder checks are occurring!

Thanks for numbers above by the way. I ought to go measure the distance to that grade.

 

[Paul1000RR]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If a cop can't even make a u-turn without killing someone i strongly recommend security work or perhaps foot patrol for a while.

 

[Benny!]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

most of us seem to be forgetting this was in the middle of bumf*** nowhere, it was dark and quiet. 4 seconds is more than enough time to see if there is traffic. Yes it's unfortunate that he died and was in the wrong place at the wrog time but in the end, Clayton had no one to blame except himself.

 

[Renboy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

U-turn law in Ontario.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

most of us seem to be forgetting this was in the middle of bumf*** nowhere, it was dark and quiet. 4 seconds is more than enough time to see if there is traffic. Yes it's unfortunate that he died and was in the wrong place at the wrog time but in the end, Clayton had no one to blame except himself.

I understand your last sentence, but what are you saying in the first part?

 

[Benny!]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I understand your last sentence, but what are you saying in the first part?

that it's dark, quiet and not a busy street. Not to mention a construction zone. a quick glance is all that's needed to see headlights so 4 seconds to do a uturn is more than enough time for the posted speeds in that area. Even if he saw headlights, If the rider was doing 60 he would have time to stop. Instead of everyone focusing on the fact that the cop did a uturn ( completely legal if he is responding to a call) you should be realizing this never would have happened had he not been speeding. What if that was you in the car pulling out of your driveway in your country home? you looked, saw nothing coming, and pulled out only to get broadsided but someone doing 3 times the limit. You would definitely be blaming the rider for hitting you. If anything I feel sorry for the cop since now he has to live with taking a life that was completely preventable.

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