Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[slowess]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not even going to voice what I "think" happened, because it doesn't really matter.

I will say this:
for those of you who say stupid stuff like
oh but he was speeding beyond his ability to stop its not the cops fault etc etc.
Best wishes to you , hope karma doesn't catch up to you.

 

[DVS Bullet]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Well we can continue to speculate as to why the cruiser was in the position it was, (U turn to respond to a call, pulled out to block bike, saw bike entering his lane and tried to avoid collision, etc), but we have no idea why it was were it was.

According to his friend the rider never rode beyond his capabilities. Although his own FB page seems to indicate he liked to ride VERY fast. We have NO idea if he was speeding, if he was target fixated, if he was sleepy and therefore, reaction times were slowed, had he been drinking, did he pin it when he saw the cruiser. Again WE have no idea. that is why I am suggesting we wait until the investigation is complete. In this case it was police cruiser, the officer is due the same level of due process as are any of us. For the poster who said they would be in cuffs in a cell overnight. That simply is not the case. If someone in a civic turns left in front of a biker they are charged, (once the investigation is complete). They WOULD be taken into custody, if they were suspected of impaired driving or some other criminal offence, HTA 172 etc. Also if they represented a flight risk.

Now having said that MOST of the invcesitgation is done at the scene by the police in the case of a civilain. In this case the investigation is being conducted by the SIU, an outside agency. I would have to check if the SIU even has powers of arrest.

I can assure you he did not get target fixation. He did not drink when he was riding. Another friend and myself talked to him 20-25 mins before the accident. He had just had new tires installed in Newmarket and wanted to come down to ride, but none of us were out that night. So he said he was just going to head home. And that was the last time anyone talked to him. Even if the cop did get a call and was doing a U-turn, it still makes the cop 100% at fault. If you were to visit the crash site you would understand better. The SIU do not have powers to arrest or to lay charges. They conclude their investigation and give suggestions for further actions to the police.

 

[Neil_V]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not even going to voice what I "think" happened, because it doesn't really matter.

I will say this:
for those of you who say stupid stuff like
oh but he was speeding beyond his ability to stop its not the cops fault etc etc.
Best wishes to you , hope karma doesn't catch up to you.

Cops, Ex-Cops, Family members of cops... One of those poster's I know for a fact is a cop, and it's clear to see his line of work creates a bias of opinion.

That said, those who ride far outside the legal limits also tend to have a bias of opinion and a "Brotherhood" so to speak.

6 of one, Half dozen of the other. Bad decisions are made by both sides on a regular basis.

I don't know what happened and I'm not about to speculate, but I will say recent decisions by the SIU leave me with little faith in the process.

 

[nobbie48]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

A simple traffic infraction has led to HTA 172 charges, a big deal for many. The legislation is very open ended and then there is the guilty until proven innocent aspect. You see it all the time here even. In some banter with TPS traffic guys I know, they find running so rampant now with 172 that they don't bat an eye at it. Certainly they don't think the guy is running for some major reason. Other than the draconian 172.

I didn't know the rider and those that did and post about him say he was a good guy. While he may have been a good guy to some I have little respect for people that speed excessively or that stunt. Why do you think HTA 172 gets support from the "Save the Children Brigade"? Why are we getting hit with higher insurance premiums?

Another backlash of HTA 172 is escalation. If I'm going to hang I might as well shoot my way out instead of surrendering. Don't expect it to improve. The hoi polloi think that if something is made illegal people will stop doing it. The reality is that just becomes another money magnet for the government.

Re the cop getting paid while under investigation, in Canada you can't legally be fired for a criminal offense until convicted. The officer gets treated differently because of the financial and political clout of the police union. You have the same rights but it takes deep pockets to use them.

Lots of criticisms of the officers and rider but how about a constructive idea or two on how to control HTA 172 type offenses? It seems that shooting them, crashing them or running them off the road isn't acceptable. List some other options.

 

[dasiffy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

^same way you pull over someone speeding 5 km/h over the limit. If they don't stop, that's "flight". Get the license plate show up at the address of the owner and impound the vehicle as evidence in a crime.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Getting a bit off topic but what do you do about a rider who is simply willing to run for any infraction. They will not have a license plate. First sign of a pull over they are off. There is no showing up at their house as the cops have no idea who it is. A good rider will never be caught by conventional means. What are the police to do? It is easier to stop a car as they can use spike strips and/or the PIT maneuver. If either are done to a fleeing motorcyclist the rider will probably get killed. Again what to do?

^same way you pull over someone speeding 5 km/h over the limit. If they don't stop, that's "flight". Get the license plate show up at the address of the owner and impound the vehicle as evidence in a crime.

 

[油井緋色]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Getting a bit off topic but what do you do about a rider who is simply willing to run for any infraction. They will not have a license plate. First sign of a pull over they are off. There is no showing up at their house as the cops have no idea who it is. A good rider will never be caught by conventional means. What are the police to do? It is easier to stop a car as they can use spike strips and/or the PIT maneuver. If either are done to a fleeing motorcyclist the rider will probably get killed. Again what to do?

Leave them the **** alone and pretend they don't exist.

Otherwise, cops need to start "running cell phone users and distracted drivers into the wall" because those ****s kill more people than pure speed ever will.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Assuming you are in anyways serious.... If they leave everybody alone who runs then why wouldn't everybody run?

I agree that speeding is not a big issue with crashing. But your example is really weak. There is no need to run cell phone/distracted drivers into wall as they will pull over. But, in your "pretend they don't exist" world even the cell phone users should run as the cops will just pretend they don't exist...

 

[iFly55]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If the officer does get charged, it'll take a herculean/lengthy effort to get a reasonable conviction. Hopefully the SIU gets the story right and put out some guidelines on how to safely effect traffic stops.

The riders death will absolutely haunt the officer, and send a chilling message to other Ontario LEOs who're overly-aggressive in their pursuits.

Maybe they should purchase more helicopters or if they get a plate number, go visit the house and charge the driver with Stunt Driving. Even if he doesn't get convicted, the 7-days from hell may be a future deterrent.

 

[dasiffy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Maybe they should purchase more helicopters or if they get a plate number, go visit the house and charge the driver with Stunt Driving. Even if he doesn't get convicted, the 7-days from hell may be a future deterrent.

if you run from the cops, that's a criminal offense. not a hta violation. police can permanently seize the ride.

There is no need to run cell phone/distracted drivers into wall as they will pull over.

the problem in this thread example is the cop didn't give the rider a chance to pull over. (if he was trying to get the rider to stop.)

As far as other options to catch runners.... more helicopters was a good idea. very south central compton-esk though.

 

[coyo]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Maybe they should purchase more helicopters or if they get a plate number, go visit the house and charge the driver with Stunt Driving. Even if he doesn't get convicted, the 7-days from hell may be a future deterrent.

I see where you're going here, but in the midst of everyone complaining, and in many cases rightfully so, about s.172 and the powers it wields, it seems odd to then use it as a deterrent (especially if the existence of s.172 was the reason for the running in the 1st place). On an aside, IMHO s.172 is here because of weak courts and weak case law that wouldn't allow for proper application and proper sentencing for existing sections in the HTA and as many things in Canada do, the pendulum has swung from one extreme right to the other.

if you run from the cops, that's a criminal offense. not a hta violation. police can permanently seize the ride.

Until the inevitable "I'm calling to report my bike stolen" call comes in.

 

[Brian P]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Getting a bit off topic but what do you do about a rider who is simply willing to run for any infraction.

Maybe the entire way we go about traffic enforcement needs a re-think.

Maybe some pendulums that have swung too far, need to swing back.

Maybe speed limits need to be re-thought so that 99% of the population is not in violation of them every time they drive.

Maybe speed limits in construction zones (case in point) only need to actually apply while actual work is being done by actual workers, and not at 11 PM when there is no one there. Same goes for school zones.

Penalties that are perceived as excessive and draconian (regardless of the reality - perception is reality) for laws that are perceived as unreasonable (speed limits that are too low, restrictions that are unreasonable, etc) WILL cause people to flout the law and some of those people WILL run from the cops.

 

[Kunman]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

/any updates to the press? i would like to see thru with this case and not have it buried in the news by the frenzies of everyday life.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Maybe the entire way we go about traffic enforcement needs a re-think.

Maybe some pendulums that have swung too far, need to swing back.

Maybe speed limits need to be re-thought so that 99% of the population is not in violation of them every time they drive.

Maybe speed limits in construction zones (case in point) only need to actually apply while actual work is being done by actual workers, and not at 11 PM when there is no one there. Same goes for school zones.

Penalties that are perceived as excessive and draconian (regardless of the reality - perception is reality) for laws that are perceived as unreasonable (speed limits that are too low, restrictions that are unreasonable, etc) WILL cause people to flout the law and some of those people WILL run from the cops.

Too even handed and logical. Might be tough sell.

 

[happycrappy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Maybe, as a community, the fringe element could come to grips with the fact that their little fiefdom is of no importance to the rest of the world. What's with the endless threads depicting every little slight against them as a rider, tribute rides for every one that goes down in a fiery, epic crash, these pathetic, whiny topics about getting cut off on the 401.....I've got news for you: SHUT THE **** UP!
You are not the first people to ride a motorcycle, not the first to want to ride over the limit, not the only people who get cut off, or feel like they are important. You are the equivalent to the left lane hogs; you think your **** doesn't stink, and the world should cave for you. Suck it up, and ride your bike already. Do 200 kph? Deal with the outcome. Don't like our speed limits? The defacto limit in this province is a cool 20 over the posted, so your argument holds no water here. You actually DO NOT have the right to do 200 on a public road. The world owes you nothing, and all the griping on here isn't going to change it. Want to ride your sportbike like an *******? We have more than enough facilities for you to ride as fast as you can. Doing it on a public road has foreseeable consequences, so suck it up. I would never wish harm on anyone, and I will also spare no sympathy for those who make those choices. Sympathy is reserved for those caught in the wake of these egomaniac ********. Deal with it.
To Brians post; why should we acquiesce to personal needs? Construction areas even when not in use will likely have uneven pavement, a lane shift, debris, limited visibility or any number of hazards that would warrant a lower speed. School zones? You know, schools tend to have these neat things called playgrounds that children use ALL YEAR. I get the argument that low speed areas in the night hours are tough to justify, but the knowledge that these same areas are known to be communal gathering places makes more sense to be wary of than to effectively increase the limits, for no other reason than to pacify people in these areas. School zones are pretty easy to avoid if you need to get somewhere efficiently.

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Do you really think it's respectful to the fallen rider to have numerous posts speculating why the cop mat not be at fault?

Talking in person about these things is different than posting on a forum where family can read.

^ this


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Maybe, as a community, the fringe element could come to grips with the fact that their little fiefdom is of no importance to the rest of the world. What's with the endless threads depicting every little slight against them as a rider, tribute rides for every one that goes down in a fiery, epic crash, these pathetic, whiny topics about getting cut off on the 401.....I've got news for you: SHUT THE **** UP!
You are not the first people to ride a motorcycle, not the first to want to ride over the limit, not the only people who get cut off, or feel like they are important. You are the equivalent to the left lane hogs; you think your **** doesn't stink, and the world should cave for you. Suck it up, and ride your bike already. Do 200 kph? Deal with the outcome. Don't like our speed limits? The defacto limit in this province is a cool 20 over the posted, so your argument holds no water here. You actually DO NOT have the right to do 200 on a public road. The world owes you nothing, and all the griping on here isn't going to change it. Want to ride your sportbike like an *******? We have more than enough facilities for you to ride as fast as you can. Doing it on a public road has foreseeable consequences, so suck it up. I would never wish harm on anyone, and I will also spare no sympathy for those who make those choices. Sympathy is reserved for those caught in the wake of these egomaniac ********. Deal with it.
To Brians post; why should we acquiesce to personal needs? Construction areas even when not in use will likely have uneven pavement, a lane shift, debris, limited visibility or any number of hazards that would warrant a lower speed. School zones? You know, schools tend to have these neat things called playgrounds that children use ALL YEAR. I get the argument that low speed areas in the night hours are tough to justify, but the knowledge that these same areas are known to be communal gathering places makes more sense to be wary of than to effectively increase the limits, for no other reason than to pacify people in these areas. School zones are pretty easy to avoid if you need to get somewhere efficiently.

"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Getting a bit off topic but what do you do about a rider who is simply willing to run for any infraction. They will not have a license plate. First sign of a pull over they are off. There is no showing up at their house as the cops have no idea who it is. A good rider will never be caught by conventional means. What are the police to do? It is easier to stop a car as they can use spike strips and/or the PIT maneuver. If either are done to a fleeing motorcyclist the rider will probably get killed. Again what to do?

I routinely see motorcycles either with no plate or a 'runner plate' in the downtown core. I suspect that you do too, whether you realize it or not. Take a walk along the row of parked bikes at work and check the plates. There are usually a couple with plates that are almost parallel to the ground.

To other posts: Some suggest helicopters. Do you have any idea what the purchase and operating costs of them are? People already complain that police are receiving too much funding. Even when plates are present there can be difficulty in identifying a helmeted, geared up rider 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' Generally speaking a planned blockade is a reasonable strategy, though also imperfect even when properly executed. Some countries have toyed with rather extreme methods of stopping motorcycles such as the net curtain that was designed to be popped up in front of fleeing motorcycles by rockets, that Japan tested as a method of dealing withe their Bosozuku problem back in the '90s. Just as with PITT maneouvers and spike strips, odds are that serious injuries would result.

The simple truth is that there is no *safe* way of stopping a motorcyclist, who doesn't want to be stopped.

 

[H4x0rz]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I was going to post something long and tought out.... But all will happen is a flame war... So; All I have to say to this community is to take into consideration the background of the people who went to the scene to piece 'everything together'.

And think about the relevant training and courses they have received in this field of collision investigations... I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, and if I do offend you I am truly sorry but....

For me, Ill draw my conclusions from what is released to media, court proceedings as a result of this, and if I was so keen, I'd order the reconstruction report after all the proceedings are done; But I don't have the few thousand of dollars lying around for that......

And I do agree with robs post. Helicopters would be beneficial. Following a fleeing motorcyclist in a car at high speed is out right dangerous.. By being able to follow a bike with a helicopter without the rider knowing is advantageous. however especially in a metropolis, with large and high buildings, underground parking lots, etc, having a helicopter may not be so useful and cost effective. . I can't see the public being in favour of spending 60 million a year on a police helicopter to monitor motorcycle activity, alone or even for other police investigations. It would be nice to have one, but let's be realistic here shall we?!

One would say chasing a motorcycle is dangerous.... But if you come to think of it. It's the person riding the motorcycle, or the car, fleeing the police that really causes the danger... If ya stop, there'd be no chase.... Plain and simple... If you do go, not only yourself will be flying down the highway at supersonic speeds...

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Posted by DVSBullet:

"I can assure you he did not get target fixation. He did not drink when he was riding."

Ok your second statement I can accept, as you knew him, just as my friends know I NEVER touch an ounce of alcohol while riding.

As for the target fixation you have NO idea on this, you weren't there. So for you to state it as though it were a known factor is simply denying a potential mitigating factor. As another poster put it. You keep pointing out you have visited the crash site, as if this gives you the power to determine, (without training nor experience), to determine the cause of this tragedy. There is a reason that if an officer is involved someone other than his friends and colleagues, (from same department), conduct the investigation. It is because it is presumed there would be some bias, just as you have a biased opinion. I am not saying that is a bad thing it is human nature and we can't change it. Your simply "wired" to defend and accept, that your friend did everything right that night.

I wasn't there either I merely suggested this as a "possibility" It makes a fair amount of sense given his bike hit the cruiser in nearly the exact spot where the light bar is located. It was night on a road that is not as well lit as a city street. Most cruisers that are hit due to target fixation on the light bars are hit on rural or highways, as the lighting is less and the light bar draws your attention more.

It may appear that I am supporting the officer, I am not, I have simply stated let's see what those who are trained experts have to report and ALL the potential mitigating factors.

For those suggesting more choppers, York Region alone is a HUGE vast area, MANY police pursuits only last at best a few minutes, (Unless your OJ Simpson or on a California freeway). For a chopper to be effect it would need to e relatively close, (within a few minutes flying time). Any idea how many choppers would need to be airborne to accomplish this and the associated costs, given the relatively low number of riders who flee.

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