Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[casacrow]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

that it's dark, quiet and not a busy street. Not to mention a construction zone. a quick glance is all that's needed to see headlights so 4 seconds to do a uturn is more than enough time for the posted speeds in that area. Even if he saw headlights, If the rider was doing 60 he would have time to stop. Instead of everyone focusing on the fact that the cop did a uturn ( completely legal if he is responding to a call) you should be realizing this never would have happened had he not been speeding. What if that was you in the car pulling out of your driveway in your country home? you looked, saw nothing coming, and pulled out only to get broadsided but someone doing 3 times the limit. You would definitely be blaming the rider for hitting you. If anything I feel sorry for the cop since now he has to live with taking a life that was completely preventable.

This would have never happened if the Uturn wasn't made either. There simply wasn't enough space for a Uturn. That's why I'm so suprised SIU would call it such.

And yup, Ill keep focusing on the Uturn and its legalities. The speed has been proven. We all know that.

 

[Benny!]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

This would have never happened if the Uturn wasn't made either. There simply wasn't enough space for a Uturn. That's why I'm so suprised SIU would call it such.

And yup, Ill keep focusing on the Uturn and its legalities. The speed has been proven. We all know that.

Then I wont bother arguing with you anymore.

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

... cop did a uturn ( completely legal if he is responding to a call) ...

I'm pretty sure, that, if he is responding to a call, he should turn his sirens on first, then do the u-turn. At which point, the biker would-of been like 'oh damn, I'm busted for speeding, slow down to reasonable speed, and then laugh it off as cop would-of drove past him in opposite direction'... but, that wasn't the case.

 

[Renboy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not positive on this one, but I would assume that the highest posted speed roads in Ontario would be 80km/h. Admittedly I haven't driven every km of all the 400 series highways, but the ones I have are divided, making u-turns impossible. If you take speeding into account, the highest reasonable speed you will encounter cars while performing a U-turn 'should' be under 110km/h (original 80km/h + 30km/h speeding). At 110km/h, and 150M of clear view, you have 4.9 seconds to complete the U-turn. At 148km/h you would need 201.8M to give a car the same amount of time to complete a U-turn. There is no way the cop is at fault for this one. I don't know the area where it happened, so yes, there's a good chance the cop didn't have 150M of view, but even if he did, the bike probably would have hit him anyway at that speed.

The only aspect I find questionable is that the bike left a skid mark and only managed to scrub 6-12km/h off it's speed. That seems really low.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not positive on this one, but I would assume that the highest posted speed roads in Ontario would be 80km/h. Admittedly I haven't driven every km of all the 400 series highways, but the ones I have are divided, making u-turns impossible. If you take speeding into account, the highest reasonable speed you will encounter cars while performing a U-turn 'should' be under 110km/h (original 80km/h + 30km/h speeding). At 110km/h, and 150M of clear view, you have 4.9 seconds to complete the U-turn. At 148km/h you would need 201.8M to give a car the same amount of time to complete a U-turn. There is no way the cop is at fault for this one. I don't know the area where it happened, so yes, there's a good chance the cop didn't have 150M of view, but even if he did, the bike probably would have hit him anyway at that speed.

The only aspect I find questionable is that the bike left a skid mark and only managed to scrub 6-12km/h off it's speed. That seems really low.

100 Kmh limit on 400 series highways with many locations, out of the city, where U-turn areas are provided for emergency vehicle use only.

Remember that your total contact patch, on a motorcycle, is the effective size of two tennis balls. You lose one of those patches (the rear tire) under heavy braking, due to forward transfer of momentum. Hammering the brakes at 150 Kmh could result in double brake lock-up, even with a ABS equipped BMW. Also remember that ABS is meant to avoid wheel lockup, which does not necessarily imply maximum braking.

 

[Renboy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

100 Kmh limit on 400 series highways with many locations, out of the city, where U-turn areas are provided for emergency vehicle use only.

Even those are divided though. You can pull onto the gravel, wait until the opposite direction clears, then continue on (thinking 402 specifically here). You don't have to do the U-turn continuously, you can stop in these instances.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not positive on this one, but I would assume that the highest posted speed roads in Ontario would be 80km/h. Admittedly I haven't driven every km of all the 400 series highways, but the ones I have are divided, making u-turns impossible. If you take speeding into account, the highest reasonable speed you will encounter cars while performing a U-turn 'should' be under 110km/h (original 80km/h + 30km/h speeding). At 110km/h, and 150M of clear view, you have 4.9 seconds to complete the U-turn. At 148km/h you would need 201.8M to give a car the same amount of time to complete a U-turn. There is no way the cop is at fault for this one. I don't know the area where it happened, so yes, there's a good chance the cop didn't have 150M of view, but even if he did, the bike probably would have hit him anyway at that speed.

The only aspect I find questionable is that the bike left a skid mark and only managed to scrub 6-12km/h off it's speed. That seems really low.

Nobody should ever assume that vehicles are traveling the speed limit. Even the police.

There is the possibility that the approaching vehicle may be an emergency vehicle. Police speed as well, as Hedo observed on 115.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Well I will forgive that you don't know police procedure. So let me educate you seeing I have actually done the work. The call, (as per the SIU report), was for a suspicious vehicle, (the SIU would have checked the phone call complaint as well as the dispatch to the officer to ensure there really was a call). This type of a call is NOT an emergency. Therefore, the officer would NOT have activated his lights and siren to make a simple U turn, as it simply isn't protocol or procedure. The roof lights and siren are for emergencies, (hence the name "emergency lights"). Do you think if they get a noise complaint they activate their lights and siren for that too?. Does this mean that ordinary citizens should have sirens installed in their cars so they too can make U turns? The officer made a LEGAL U turn in the course of his duties. The rider was speeding, and riding well beyond his abilities if he:

1. didn't recognize the potential danger of a vehicle sitting at the side of a road at night while he was traveling twice the legal limit;
2. he was riding at a rate of speed that made stopping within a reasonable distance impossible

Now for the second portion of your supposition, that the rider would have slowed to a "reasonable speed" should he have not been doing a reasonable speed to begin with? But ignoring that he was only able to cut his speed from a high estimate of 154 to 142 before striking the cruiser, so do you think had he seen the lights it would have magically allowed him to slow at a MUCH faster rate than seeing a obstacle, (cruiser), directly in his path? If he couldn't see a full sized cruiser on the side of the road, and slow down then what makes you think the lights would have been a more effective option?

I'm pretty sure, that, if he is responding to a call, he should turn his sirens on first, then do the u-turn. At which point, the biker would-of been like 'oh damn, I'm busted for speeding, slow down to reasonable speed, and then laugh it off as cop would-of drove past him in opposite direction'... but, that wasn't the case.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Nobody should ever assume that vehicles are traveling the speed limit. Even the police.

There is the possibility that the approaching vehicle may be an emergency vehicle. Police speed as well, as Hedo observed on 115.

If it's physically impossible to see the vehicle, due to speed, then the default assumption (a reasonable one) is that there is no vehicle.

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

... what makes you think the lights would have been a more effective option?

I don't know, maybe he didn't see the car himself either and lights would-of helped? And, in regards to the 'emergency lights', I've misread the sentence, where the cop received the call...

 

[happycrappy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet....there is also a legal requirement to give emergency vehicles a wide berth when they are pulled over, either by moving a lane over if possible or slowing as to pass safely, and I believe the charge for doing so carries a few points too. Kinda helps if you aren't riding so stupid fast that you can't see the emergency vehicle.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Except this wasn't an "approaching vehicle", it was vehicle on the shoulder of the road. I am not sure about you but when I see a car on the shoulder like that I automatically assume they are going to either pull out in front of me into my lane or they are going to pull a u turn. Therefore, I SLOW down and move to the left of my lane, but thta is likely just me being cautious which seems to have served me well in the 35 years I have been riding.

I agree you should never assume that other vehicles are traveling at the speed limit but we shouldn't also be expected to assume that other vehicles are traveling at TWICE the limit either.

As for your "test" of the vehicles pulling u turns in less than 4 seconds. It isn't a valid observation as the 4 seconds should begin from the time the driver decides to make the turn, checks their mirrors and does a shoulder check and initiates the turn. Don't forget MOST drivers check the way is clear THEN start the turn. Again had the rider not been doing TWICE the limit on a SS his braking should have been more than adequate even at 20 km over to stop the bike before striking the cruiser.

I HIGHLY doubt he ever knew it was a cruiser, by the time he was within the limits of his headlights he wouldn't have had time at the rate he was closing the gap to process it before impact.

This is from the BCRider website:
Riding at Night

Overriding your headlight can be a problem at night. This means you're not able to see the road beyond the headlight. This is especially dangerous on a curved road. Slow down and be certain you can stop within the light's range.
​

• Wear bright reflective gear, keep faceshield clean (don't use tinted one).
• To avoid oncoming headlight glare, glance to the right.
• Keep scanning for hazards as you slow down and maintain a safe following distance.
• Choose a lane position to allow better visibility to other traffic.

Obviously at 140 km/h your overriding your head light.

You can argue all day long the officer was at fault but the FACTS simply don't support that conclusion. You can tap your heels together three times but the facts still won't change. It is a true tragedy, but it was 100% preventable had the rider been operating his vehicle in a safe responsible and LEGAL manner.

I can assure you my sanity is intact. Under "normal" conditions the U turn was legal and safe. It was the riders illegal actions that made it unsafe.

Also in my story yes the cruiser was speeding BUT he also had his emergency equipment activated. He wasn't just speeding along a dark back road.

Nobody should ever assume that vehicles are traveling the speed limit. Even the police.

There is the possibility that the approaching vehicle may be an emergency vehicle. Police speed as well, as Hedo observed on 115.

 

[NotANinja]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Exactly. If you are doing something illegal to initial the accident ie speeding at retarded speeds, then there is no way the other party should be charged. Same with the other case downtown. Had the riders not been lane splitting the accident would never have happened.

But what about that guy who died in England? He was speeding and the other car made the turn cutting him off. The driver was charged. IMO, he shouldn't have been charged but that is why I'm confused.

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet....there is also a legal requirement to give emergency vehicles a wide berth when they are pulled over, either by moving a lane over if possible or slowing as to pass safely, and I believe the charge for doing so carries a few points too. Kinda helps if you aren't riding so stupid fast that you can't see the emergency vehicle.

I think this is only when they have their lights on. Did the cruiser have its lights on?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't know, maybe he didn't see the car himself either and lights would-of helped? And, in regards to the 'emergency lights', I've misread the sentence, where the cop received the call...

What if the cop got out and put out flares before he made the u turn so that someone riding stupidly at TWICE the limit had time to slow down to say 120? Or he had wrapped his cruiser in foam so as to not hurt anyone who might hit him??? LOL those scenarios are just as silly. There was NO requirement to use his roof lights. Again do civilians now need roof lights, 9yellow like a tow truck), to advise riders riding illegally they are on the road and not to hit them?

Ok now here is the question of the day.... The cop IS at fault because he didn't see the single headlight of a bike being operated at twice the legal limit. BUT the biker is totally blameless because he didn't see a full sized sedan. If the road was THAT dark wouldn't the rider have seen the headlights and taillights??? Maybe the cop didn't see him and he didn't see the cop because he was going stupidly fast?? No that can't be it... HAS to be the cops fault.. That is why we have PROFESSIONALS conduct investigations, with ALL the facts available to them.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't know, maybe he didn't see the car himself either and lights would-of helped? And, in regards to the 'emergency lights', I've misread the sentence, where the cop received the call...

OK let's call the Premier and pass a new law NO u turns by ANYONE unless they activate warnings signs, lights on their roof, and likely even flares to warn those driving/riding illegally that they are about to make a LEGAL u turn.

GMAFB

The rider at that speed likely didn't even have time to react, (which would explain why he braked so late and couldn't reduce his speed by more than 12 km/h on a ss

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If it's physically impossible to see the vehicle, due to speed, then the default assumption (a reasonable one) is that there is no vehicle.

+1 thousand now STOP being reasonable and drawing logical conclusions...lol

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

OK let's call the Premier and pass a new law NO u turns by ANYONE unless they activate warnings signs, lights on their roof, and likely even flares to warn those driving/riding illegally that they are about to make a LEGAL u turn.

GMAFB

The rider at that speed likely didn't even have time to react, (which would explain why he braked so late and couldn't reduce his speed by more than 12 km/h on a ss

Woooohhh, buddy, go cool down somewhere.... You cant even read properly, i said, i originally misread the part with 'emergency call' or whatever, misinterpreted the sentence, that's why I said, maybe he shouldof trned the light on, then I've re-read it and seen that i was wrong, after reading your post, and said, 'I've misread the sentence... whatever. And you are jumping around over everyone here, fuming like a boiling pot.

But then, I noticed this

I think back to my days when we ONLY had a single radio to monitor while still being expected to do everything else we had to do..lol

And it all became clear to me, you went though the best training on how to be a $*$k.

 

[kellen]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

But what about that guy who died in England? He was speeding and the other car made the turn cutting him off. The driver was charged. IMO, he shouldn't have been charged but that is why I'm confused.

If the rider was doing 10 km/h the speed limit do you think the other driver should have been charged? 5 km/h over? 20 km/h over?

 

[DVS Bullet]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

People who never went to crash site should really say nothing. It was an illegal U-turn because there was a crest of a hill, a bend in the road with a concrete barrier where visibility was way less then 150 meters. The cop was in front of Clayton, he was not sitting on the side of the road. When the cop got to the end of the barrier he turned into the unused lanes and pulled straight out in front of Clayton to do his U-Turn all in one motion without stopping. The cop did not have his lights on and did not have the vision around the barrier or around the slight bend in the road, nor did Clayton. He didn't even stop to look to see if anyone was coming so no wonder he didn't see the light of the bike. I am sure he should have heard him coming if the motor was reving at that speed though. Even if this was an accident the person should not be a officer because they clearly can not make proper decicions in obvious circumstances and they should be charged for the illegal and careless U-turn. I hope this eats him/her for the rest of their life.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

People who never went to crash site should really say nothing. It was an illegal U-turn because there was a crest of a hill, a bend in the road with a concrete barrier where visibility was way less then 150 meters. The cop was in front of Clayton, he was not sitting on the side of the road. When the cop got to the end of the barrier he turned into the unused lanes and pulled straight out in front of Clayton to do his U-Turn all in one motion without stopping. The cop did not have his lights on and did not have the vision around the barrier or around the slight bend in the road, nor did Clayton. He didn't even stop to look to see if anyone was coming so no wonder he didn't see the light of the bike. I am sure he should have heard him coming if the motor was reving at that speed though. Even if this was an accident the person should not be a officer because they clearly can not make proper decicions in obvious circumstances and they should be charged for the illegal and careless U-turn. I hope this eats him/her for the rest of their life.

I dunno. The only other person right here to go and look at the site himself. Seems those that actually went and made the observations for themselves are drawing the same conclusions. I don't even know this lad, but his observations are strikingly similar to mine. Except from what I recall there was no shoulder for the officer to pull over to on the right? Was just concrete barrier right up against the driving surface? Anyone know if the requirement of a legal Uturn is to pull onto the right shoulder first?

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