cc limit for new riders

[hedo2002]

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While I agree with your theory. I can't agree that it is a truly effective practical solution. Hell, I saw, and investigated, a few fatal, (as we called them back then crotch rocket), fatalities. Back then a 500 was considered a stupidly, (by those who didn't ride), fast bike. So these types of incidents have been happening virtually from the minute the first guy climbed onto a "two wheeled motorized bicycle"

This rider isn't the first to get on a bike that was WAY beyond his abilities, nor will he be the last. IMHO we already have enough options to deal with this, (Laws, insurance etc). We need not go looking for "new solutions" to a relatively minor issue. Yes EACH death is tragic, but they are not the norm.

Limiting cc's or hp, while it may help, will still be circumvented by riders as it appears this fellow was, (one who is not concerned with laws and reulations). They will simply buy a big bike and either not insure it, (or have it "registered" to mom or dad), or if they know the penalties are going to be very harsh, simply run if they see red and blues.

What we DO need is better education, and licencing requirements. But I wouldn't hold my breath on either. Then we as a community, if we ride with someone who is doing stupid/dangerous things, we simply stop riding with them. Not much fun to "show off your mad skillz" when there is no one to watch. There will still be tragedies, but we can help reduce them.

Rather than teach people how to ride as you put it in one of your earlier post "ride at a decent speed, and corner" why not let's teach them to ride at a RESPONSIBILE speed. Yes I understand track schools aren't about breaking speed limits or hooligan riding. But we all know that if a person "thinks" they have mastered these skills, (riding fast and cornering positioning etc), they will use them and at times to excess. To think otherwise would be foolhardy. Even regualr track users still crash so regardless of how much you have learned or practiced there is still times when it bites back.

I ride at 50% of what I'm capable on street/ramps because there's too many distractions (guardrails, cars crossing yellow, riders/drivers that turn too slow, uneven asphalt, oil, etc.).

Seems like a ton of people are missing the point. Most of us who have driven for years already have the necessary skills to avoid an accident, such as...do not go at warp speed if the lane next to you is grid locked but yours is clear, or don't jab the brakes when you panic (err..this one is less obvious).

The CC limit for new riders has less to do with navigating the streets safely in relation to other traffic, it's there to prevent new riders from murdering themselves due to their inability to control a supersport or superbike.

An example of how track skills would transfer onto the street would be taking a turn with proper body position, therefore reducing lean angle and increasing the room for error in the case of a pothole, raccoon, or decreasing radius, or whatever. Trail braking skills also transfer over as it shows brake application in a mid corner won't cause you to crash, as long as it's gradual and not a jab. Throttle control is another one as blipping mid corner, due to fear, really upsets the bike. You learn to trust the bike and yourself when you practice these things and you cannot do it safely on the street where there isn't any run off.

Taking an instructional course like Racer5 or FAST has nothing to do with breaking speed limits or riding like a hooligan down Yonge Street. There seems to be some ignorance with regards to this from those that haven't done track schools.

 

[inreb]

There seems to be some ignorance with regards to this from those that haven't done track schools.

Hard to understand that mentality. If somebody's resistant to track school you would hope that's based on cost or time constraints, not the inability to recognize the benefits. It reminds me of winter driving. One young lady told me she dreaded the drive home after the snow hit. I suggested there's a huge empty parking lot out there, why don't why you get comfortable in that? She thought that was retarded.

 

[griff2]

Human race.

Not any more. That membership has since expired.

 

[inreb]

While I agree with your theory. I can't agree that it is a truly effective practical solution. Hell, I saw, and investigated, a few fatal, (as we called them back then crotch rocket), fatalities. Back then a 500...........

Rather than teach people how to ride as you put it in one of your earlier post "ride at a decent speed, and corner" why not let's teach them to ride at a RESPONSIBILE speed.

Here's a novel idea. Learn bike control beyond what you need on a regular basis. Yes, I see that cruiser riders aren't really hip to that. Why does entry to everything, except maybe Bomb Squad School, cater to the lowest common denominator?

 

[jc100]

I ride at 50% of what I'm capable on street/ramps because there's too many distractions (guardrails, cars crossing yellow, riders/drivers that turn too slow, uneven asphalt, oil, etc.).

Seems like a ton of people are missing the point. Most of us who have driven for years already have the necessary skills to avoid an accident, such as...do not go at warp speed if the lane next to you is grid locked but yours is clear, or don't jab the brakes when you panic (err..this one is less obvious).

The CC limit for new riders has less to do with navigating the streets safely in relation to other traffic, it's there to prevent new riders from murdering themselves due to their inability to control a supersport or superbike.

An example of how track skills would transfer onto the street would be taking a turn with proper body position, therefore reducing lean angle and increasing the room for error in the case of a pothole, raccoon, or decreasing radius, or whatever. Trail braking skills also transfer over as it shows brake application in a mid corner won't cause you to crash, as long as it's gradual and not a jab. Throttle control is another one as blipping mid corner, due to fear, really upsets the bike. You learn to trust the bike and yourself when you practice these things and you cannot do it safely on the street where there isn't any run off.

Taking an instructional course like Racer5 or FAST has nothing to do with breaking speed limits or riding like a hooligan down Yonge Street. There seems to be some ignorance with regards to this from those that haven't done track schools.

The UK with graduated licensing and a much more stringent testing system has no insurance incentive for attending track schools but does have insurance incentives for advanced rider schools. Ergo: not necessary. Learning to ride fast is not the aim of learning to ride in our traffic system. Same as a race-driving school isn't necessary to learn how to drive a car in our traffic system.

Body position etc is fine and all, good skills to have....but can you honestly say leaning like a loon (emphasis on loon as opposed to some body position) is necessary on our streets with the speed limits and road layouts we generally have and where you can go fast(er) there's not that many tight turns except for highway on/off ramps. There's a reason people head off to the limited few twists there are around and why you head off to the ramps, because they are uncommon. Having said that though, someone not scraping pegs and knees while going through the same areas of roads is probably riding more safely than you.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I ride at 50% of what I'm capable on street/ramps because there's too many distractions (guardrails, cars crossing yellow, riders/drivers that turn too slow, uneven asphalt, oil, etc.).

Seems like a ton of people are missing the point. Most of us who have driven for years already have the necessary skills to avoid an accident, such as...do not go at warp speed if the lane next to you is grid locked but yours is clear, or don't jab the brakes when you panic (err..this one is less obvious).

The CC limit for new riders has less to do with navigating the streets safely in relation to other traffic, it's there to prevent new riders from murdering themselves due to their inability to control a supersport or superbike.

An example of how track skills would transfer onto the street would be taking a turn with proper body position, therefore reducing lean angle and increasing the room for error in the case of a pothole, raccoon, or decreasing radius, or whatever. Trail braking skills also transfer over as it shows brake application in a mid corner won't cause you to crash, as long as it's gradual and not a jab. Throttle control is another one as blipping mid corner, due to fear, really upsets the bike. You learn to trust the bike and yourself when you practice these things and you cannot do it safely on the street where there isn't any run off.

Taking an instructional course like Racer5 or FAST has nothing to do with breaking speed limits or riding like a hooligan down Yonge Street. There seems to be some ignorance with regards to this from those that haven't done track schools.

My question, where does all the track capacity and worse yet track school capacity come from? Look at how many people are taking the M1 Exit course accross the GTA each weekend, now think about all those people trying to get into some track school...

Simple answer, it just will not work. Good idea or bad, logistics and capacity kills it.

 

[Chhai]

Trust me I'm all about constant improvement in riding through courses and track days. But as Hedo stated, excessive riding like this on the streets will get you in trouble.

Do you ride your bike everyday? Some of us commute everyday and the best way to do that is stay within the legal limits!

Taking an instructional course like Racer5 or FAST has nothing to do with breaking speed limits or riding like a hooligan down Yonge Street. There seems to be some ignorance with regards to this from those that haven't done track schools.

 

[jc100]

I actually think the cc limit in the UK had another unintended consequence in that it enhanced the motorcycle culture there. Everyone was in the same boat having to start on a small capacity bike. There was no "stigma" about having to ride a 50cc, or 125cc bike early on as everyone understood what you were going through as they did it themselves. Not so much of a poser culture then than a riders culture. It weeded out those that just wanted the biggest and best (and many of those without the intent to learn how to handle the bigger bikes). When I was 17 I had a 50cc road legal dirtbike in the UK. Possibly one of the most fun bikes I ever had and there was zero stigma about the engine capacity. All my friends wanted a go on the bike and I had to ride around with a big red "L" on the plate at the back.

Over here things are different, the insurance industry has made a half assed attempt to do the same thing but by enriching themselves at the same time and saying "hey, if you're rich, you can get a big bike". Totally the wrong way of doing things and it's hurt the insurance industry in terms of reputation. That's the other thing, I don't remember feeling the same way about the industry in the UK.

The stigma thing works both ways too, I wonder how many potential riders have said "I can't afford a big bike, I don't want to ride a smaller bike" due to peer pressure. Then these people, who may have loved riding, will never try it. If the situation was such that there was no stigma to riding a smaller bike you've removed the peer pressure element and now people are riding because they really want to ride.

 

[油井緋色]

Trust me I'm all about constant improvement in riding through courses and track days. But as Hedo stated, excessive riding like this on the streets will get you in trouble.

Do you ride your bike everyday? Some of us commute everyday and the best way to do that is stay within the legal limits!

I used to. Stopped because I got a free car and riding takes away from my work...I get too excited and would rather just keep riding lol

As ZX600 stated, some of us ride less stupid after track school. I cannot go balls out on the street without fear due to lack of safety measures (run off). There seems to be an incorrect correlation that having the ability to do == go prove your worth on ramps.

 

[MacDoc]

cc limit for new riders
This isn't the first time I've heard this, but about 2 yrs ago it sounded more like a rumor. This morning I was chatting with a local cop here over riding and the death of the M1 rider last night and his passenger's life threatening condition came up. The officer said that there will be a law passed limiting the cc/size of the bike a beginner can ride. Are cops privy to forthcoming laws or something? Anyone here anything about this? Shoot, I don't want to have to sell mine should the law be passed during my M2.


And will disallowing a new rider a 1000cc sound so bad?

It's like that elsewhere -

Australia has learner approved that go up to something like a KLR650 but it's not cc limited - it depends on the power to weight and other issues.

They are very strict with mcycle training and restrictions....the positive side - I insure the KLR for $267 a year for liability.

They allow a single seat option which cuts liability costs in two.

I'm sure Europe is very similar.

 

[hedo2002]

Here's a novel idea. Learn bike control beyond what you need on a regular basis. Yes, I see that cruiser riders aren't really hip to that. Why does entry to everything, except maybe Bomb Squad School, cater to the lowest common denominator?

As I said we need better education and better licencing requirements, The latter would no doubt also encompass better training. As it is now track schools are no doubt staffed by highly qualified individuals. If we begin to mandate that all new riders attend a track school, how long will it take before just like car driving schools they are focused on "teaching to the test" rather than actual skills? We have all seen "supposed driver trainers" do stupid bone headed moves on the road

 

[CafeRay]

It's like that elsewhere -

Australia has learner approved that go up to something like a KLR650 but it's not cc limited - it depends on the power to weight and other issues.

They are very strict with mcycle training and restrictions....the positive side - I insure the KLR for $267 a year for liability.

They allow a single seat option which cuts liability costs in two.

I'm sure Europe is very similar.

This should happen in Ontario. They have the data on 30% lower crashes with ABS, but ABS does not affect insurance. Most countries with less corrupt insurance schemes have >20 insurance categories for bikes. Good riders subsidize bad ones, and bad riders typically enter the system briefly, make a big claim, then get out of motorcycling altogether. More intensive training would weed out those guys.

 

[LoneRonin]

Most young kids will just continue to ride without insurance if more legislation is brought on , bend the plate and away you go.

seriously...

This 24 year old guy whose been telling me all winter he rides a R6 and to get rid of my 250 so we can take some chicks for a ride came in yesterday, he's a got a nice silver current gen. I looked at his license plate this is what it was....Its a Dominican Republic souvenir plate for ****s sake.

 

[inreb]

As I said we need better education and better licencing requirements, The latter would no doubt also encompass better training. As it is now track schools are no doubt staffed by highly qualified individuals. If we begin to mandate that all new riders attend a track school, how long will it take before just like car driving schools they are focused on "teaching to the test" rather than actual skills? We have all seen "supposed driver trainers" do stupid bone headed moves on the road

Oh, sorry, maybe wires crossed* here I wasn't talking mandated I meant voluntarily in self interest. I thought we were still talking track time as effective learning tool.

*please ignore bomb reference

 

[油井緋色]

Oh, sorry, maybe wires crossed* here I wasn't talking mandated I meant voluntarily in self interest. I thought we were still talking track time as effective learning tool.

*please ignore bomb reference

I meant race schools not just trackdays. No one is going to pick anything up without education via instructions or reading...most people are too lazy to read.

 

[I82l8]

Human race.

Sent from Z10 on Tapatalk

You sure
I thought they kinda looked like these two:

 

[nakkers]

What ever is done, there are ways to circumvent them. I think power to weight ratio restrictions and education requirements that require more than just a weekend of seat time would benefit. Track? Sure. I would rather focus on navigation on the street. How to identify potential hazards and avoid them. Better lane discipline. Being prepared to deal with not being seen or understanding that having the right of way doesn't always translate you should go ahead.

It's ok to let someone blow their horn at you at an intersection as you wait for all vehicles to stop before making a left hand turn.

There is a mind set that develops with experience and we have to get new riders up to speed faster and we have to get experience riders to be better mentors to newer riders.

Riding is not the same as driving and it's not for everyone. Some folks need to recognize it and accept it. And peers should be supportive of it.

I was watching some clips of motorcycle accidents and the majority of the cases, could identify several factors within the rider's control they could have changed to avoid things before they developed to something unavoidable. They were riding in a perfectly legal manner. But, they also took a lot for granted.

All I'm saying is, what ever the bloody government does, it won't take away the stupid we see on the daily. It's just going to be another layer of administration and be a joke. That's the bottom line.

 

[inreb]

I meant race schools not just trackdays. No one is going to pick anything up without education via instructions or reading...most people are too lazy to read.

tldr

 

[kthxbbq]

Some interesting points. I've always been a fan of draconian penalties for things like this. Some superstars are going to kill themselves no matter what, but once you catch someone who appears to have mistaken Ontario roadways for a TT circuit, make it either illegal or financially unrealistic for them to continue riding. The number of reasonable excuses for riding as if you were participating in a TT is somewhere around 0, so the risk of wrongful conviction is very low.

Others mentioned the European style of licensing. I only really know about Germany, and it is surprisingly expensive for Germans to get a driver's license. It's also expensive to get a vehicle registered and keep it registered. Also, keep in mind that since they have about 82,000,000 people in a country that is smaller than Ontario, less people feel the need to own a vehicle or have a license, and the transit system is one of the best in the world. Germans have to receive between 24 and 48 hours of professional instruction, including night-time instruction, before they can be licensed. The license itself would be over $2000CAD said and done. The written exam includes questions about driving physics, vehicle and engine mechanics, etc. It really feels like a privilege to use the roads there, and they take driving very seriously. Every vehicle must be assessed for safety and condition by an agency called the Technische Überwachungsverein (TÜV), and the standards are way stricter than anything we have here. Nobody drives a junker, which means less chance of riding through oil.

 

[inreb]

Except for a couple wars the krauts are pretty slick.

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