cc limit for new riders

[Riceburner]

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Everyone is saying that there are those that will circumvent the rules/law. Sure there will, but less than if there wasn't a cc or hp limit. As a parent, I have no problem with my kid riding, but they will start on a 250 or GS500 max.

 

[cool]

Everyone is saying that there are those that will circumvent the rules/law. Sure there will, but less than if there wasn't a cc or hp limit. As a parent, I have no problem with my kid riding, but they will start on a 250 or GS500 max.

No you read it wrong. Not everyone. And most ppl says its the licensing stage matters more. Having hp limits do little to nothing because M1 should not be riding any bike on street period.

 

[happycrappy]

Interesting replies thus far.....I have done and fully appreciate the benefits of track training, however one thing that stands out about those courses is that they are on a track, not on the street. You can't cure stupid, and sometimes the byproduct of a rider who thinks they are skilled after their track time is that they completely ignore the variables one finds on the street. Body position, trail braking, shifting all mean considerably less when you over cook a ramp that has diesel spilled on it, or when you catch a pothole mid-corner and fly into a minivan. I really don't know why this is so over-thought; don't ride like a dick on the roads, ride defensively, do some far more useful training like DIRT RIDING, where bumps and slides are a big focus, and leave the ego somewhere else completely. Plenty of really good riders out there that are now in a wheelchair or worse.....

 

[Blackfin]

M1 should be limited to cc size and should most certainly be on the road to learn. Insurers should require a course for anyone going to get a motorcycle license also.

Or at least offer discounts for those that have. Interestingly, my insurer (State Farm) didn't care that I'd taken a course. It made no difference to the premium I was quoted. (They also didn't care that the bike I had then -- a 2014 CBR500R -- had ABS. Again, no difference in premium to them...) On their website, they offer discounts for "Driver Training":

"...Drivers may be eligible for this discount if all assigned drivers under the age of 25 have successfully completed an acceptable driver education course..."

Not sure why they limit this to under-25s since it's the over-40 demographic that is most represented in motorcycle fatality stats.

 

[inreb]

happycrappy:
Ok maybe you can't cure stupid but you can sure as heck cure lack of confidence. Track training, imho, was not meant to create heros. It's a safe place to learn how the machine can work underneath you. If nervous Nelley follows somebody around at moderate speed and sees with their own eyes that a certain lean angle is not doom that's a valuable lesson learned. That's just one of many possible examples. How many car drivers never get or take the opportunity to understand the limits? How many people have been injured or killed by a frozen driver? Street smarts and track competence are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Benny!]

Instead of cc limit there should be power to weight limits instead. Would solve the cruiser issue

 

[happycrappy]

happycrappy:
Ok maybe you can't cure stupid but you can sure as heck cure lack of confidence. Track training, imho, was not meant to create heros. It's a safe place to learn how the machine can work underneath you. If nervous Nelley follows somebody around at moderate speed and sees with their own eyes that a certain lean angle is not doom that's a valuable lesson learned. That's just one of many possible examples. How many car drivers never get or take the opportunity to understand the limits? How many people have been injured or killed by a frozen driver? Street smarts and track competence are not mutually exclusive.

Not in total disagreement; I think my point is more along the lines of track training would not be enough of the specific skills, as the perils one encounters on the street are often in a completely different scenario, which is exactly why I think dirt training is better IMHO. Part of the red-herring that comes with track training is the inference of your abilities at speed; most of these crashes are a result of the additional mitigating factors, in large part would be rendered moot if they were riding slower. In a parallel point to this conversation, why do people not have to take a car on a track as part of their training? We have all collectively griped about a lack of driver training to point to many issues on our roads, and yet nobody has ever mentioned that you can blissfully get a G license in a smart car, in some rural testing facility, in the middle of summer and carry the same license to grab a big honking dually with an RV trailer and drive through a blizzard. Track training unfortunately is just not enough. Not saying it's bad, but really any of its benefits can easily be achieved in a proper street riding course. I'd personally love to see a graduated class of license more pointed than it is now, but somehow I doubt the Gov' would be able/willing to make that happen. Hell, I have a license to drive a coach bus, and I have never, ever sat behind the wheel of one. Go figure

 

[Joe Bass]

Mental note: Do not hire happycrappy to drive me somewhere in a coach bus.

 

[MacDoc]

nstead of cc limit there should be power to HP limits instead. Would solve the cruiser issue

that is exactly what most jurisdictions use.

So a 650 KLR is designated a Learner machine but a 600 SS is not.

Japan and Australia both have the very sweet Honda CBR400Vtech 4 cylinder as it meets the learner guidelines but is a total hoot to ride when the Vtech kicks in.

Yamaha sells a detuned FZ-07 in Europe and Aus for the same reason.

I suspect there will be cheats on that tho.

••••

I think dirt experience is a far more valuable skill set in the real world as it prepares you to handle your bike in adverse road conditions and find out what happens braking and accelerating on changeable surfaces.

Too many fairweather riders have not a clue what their bike will do in rain or construction gravel - they grab a handful of front brake and down they go.

Dirt teaches you to recover a washing out front wheel or a sliding rear wheel, how to fall and how to use both brakes and when to concentrate on one or the other. It's just plain ideal for the new rider and really for any rider that wants to up their skill set.

Even without courses, taking your road bike on dirt and gravel is good practice so when the time comes you know how it will handle and not get all panickly as the bike skitters around a bit.

 

[happycrappy]

Mental note: Do not hire happycrappy to drive me somewhere in a coach bus.

Lol, c'mon dude, where's your sense of adventure?

 

[inreb]

Not in total disagreement; I think my point is more along the lines of track training would not be enough of the specific skills, as the perils one encounters on the street are often in a completely different scenario, which is exactly why I think dirt training is better IMHO.

I think it should be obvious that track training would not provide enough of the specific skills for street riding because different scenarios but then you suggest dirt training is better? Why, because people live in a gravel pit? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm talking pure dynamic bike control to the level one feels comfortable, above and beyond any license oriented training.
Riding with and around strangers you can often pick out immediately who the tentative riders are. I'd like to see riders where it isn't so immediately obvious.

 

[happycrappy]

I think it should be obvious that track training would not provide enough of the specific skills for street riding because different scenarios but then you suggest dirt training is better? Why, because people live in a gravel pit? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm talking pure dynamic bike control to the level one feels comfortable, above and beyond any license oriented training.
Riding with and around strangers you can often pick out immediately who the tentative riders are. I'd like to see riders where it isn't so immediately obvious.

If you need an example of arguing, scroll through your almost-7000 posts of it. If you can't comprehend what I wrote, then please feel free to read what Macdoc succinctly wrote about the dynamics of dirt riding skills. Pretty sure that adequately answers the needs of tentative riders without the inference of "mad squid skillz". Got it now?

 

[inreb]

If you need an example of arguing, scroll through your almost-7000 posts of it. If you can't comprehend what I wrote, then please feel free to read what Macdoc succinctly wrote about the dynamics of dirt riding skills. Pretty sure that adequately answers the needs of tentative riders without the inference of "mad squid skillz". Got it now?

Try to focus. What is this inference of "mad squid skillz? Your original post was just full of unrelated nonsense, now the "mad skillz". Should I start a rant on Sunday drunks?

 

[hedo2002]

I guess the question is the rider who prompted this discussion was already doing SEVERAL things wrong and violating conditions of his licence. Do we really believe that he would take his GSXR 1000 to a track training day and behave appropriately?

Or would he view this as an "opportunity" to show everyone what a great skilled rider he was?

The instructors could tell people to ride safely and at a certain speed to begin with but how do they stop him from "opening it up" on the track, (sure once he returns they can kick him off the track), but by then the "damage" may have already been done.

I believe a combination of stricter licencing requirements, (although given this riders COMPLETE disregard for the conditions he was already under, it wouldn't have made a difference to him), coupled with some form of restrictions weather it be weight to power ratio or cc limits, (again a person such as this is likely to circumvent any regulations if ti didn't meet his NEEDS). Would go a long way.

 

[inreb]

I think we got a little off track here, no pun intended. I'm not going to go back thru the thread but at some point it was suggested track training could/would help a new rider. Any talk about "mad skillz" or "great opportunity to show everyone what a great skilled rider he is" is something else to be dealt with.
The suggestion for total noob to go on track or dirt riding is valid. Motorcycle riding is an athletic pursuit requiring co-ordination, smooth input(feel), balance, awareness etc.etc. Look at a noob in any new sporting endeavour, they stick out like sore thumb. Not a big deal if you fan a tennis ball and stand in the wrong position but a little bit more of a deal if you wobble out of a parking lot into traffic. A safe rider should feel comfortable and second nature on a bike. That's going to take a while.
You know, I can sit at a bike hangout (true story) and watch as nice noob lady rider struggles to tippy toe back up b/n from box FZ-07 and wobble behind hubby into traffic. She does the S bend crossing the train tracks with about 7 apexes. Ya, there's a new rider who's going to deal with any curveball successfully
I don't know why the word "track" has to throw some people into a froth. It's a great venue to learn your bike.

 

[hedo2002]

I agree anything that helps anew rider, become a better safer rider, is a bonus.

I just think we need to be careful in what we wish for. As I said earlier my concern is that currently tarck schools are staffed with competent, skilled instructors. I fear if we force every new rider to attend a "track school", (if we could even find the capacity to do so), the level of instructors will deminish greatly, and then we end up with a situation similar to the current "driving schools" where anyone can buy a corrolla and become a "driving instructor" and teach only to the test, (many poorly at even that).

Also, riders like the one in this thread isn't likely to "follow the rules" anyway, so it likely will reduce but not eliminate incidents like this one. I think we all agree more needs to be done, But as someone said you can't cure stupid...

I think we got a little off track here, no pun intended. I'm not going to go back thru the thread but at some point it was suggested track training could/would help a new rider. Any talk about "mad skillz" or "great opportunity to show everyone what a great skilled rider he is" is something else to be dealt with.
The suggestion for total noob to go on track or dirt riding is valid. Motorcycle riding is an athletic pursuit requiring co-ordination, smooth input(feel), balance, awareness etc.etc. Look at a noob in any new sporting endeavour, they stick out like sore thumb. Not a big deal if you fan a tennis ball and stand in the wrong position but a little bit more of a deal if you wobble out of a parking lot into traffic. A safe rider should feel comfortable and second nature on a bike. That's going to take a while.
You know, I can sit at a bike hangout (true story) and watch as nice noob lady rider struggles to tippy toe back up b/n from box FZ-07 and wobble behind hubby into traffic. She does the S bend crossing the train tracks with about 7 apexes. Ya, there's a new rider who's going to deal with any curveball successfully
I don't know why the word "track" has to throw some people into a froth. It's a great venue to learn your bike.

 

[inreb]

Is beating a subject to death a sport? Vast majority of sports are closed course, take years to master and are not life threatening. Riding in traffic? Meh....

 

[LePhillou]

I think we got a little off track here, no pun intended. I'm not going to go back thru the thread but at some point it was suggested track training could/would help a new rider. Any talk about "mad skillz" or "great opportunity to show everyone what a great skilled rider he is" is something else to be dealt with.
The suggestion for total noob to go on track or dirt riding is valid. Motorcycle riding is an athletic pursuit requiring co-ordination, smooth input(feel), balance, awareness etc.etc. Look at a noob in any new sporting endeavour, they stick out like sore thumb. Not a big deal if you fan a tennis ball and stand in the wrong position but a little bit more of a deal if you wobble out of a parking lot into traffic. A safe rider should feel comfortable and second nature on a bike. That's going to take a while.
You know, I can sit at a bike hangout (true story) and watch as nice noob lady rider struggles to tippy toe back up b/n from box FZ-07 and wobble behind hubby into traffic. She does the S bend crossing the train tracks with about 7 apexes. Ya, there's a new rider who's going to deal with any curveball successfully
I don't know why the word "track" has to throw some people into a froth. It's a great venue to learn your bike.

Thissss ^^^^^

EDIT) Especially when most moto accidents are from moto rider input error, any effort to help reduce that by having better control can't hurt

 

[DemonPig]

Doubtful as most Cruisers are larger CC capactity.

M1 licence needs to be harder to obtain, current set up of taking a multiple choice exam is far to easy.

M1, the way it is, is so pointless, they should just skip it.
Combine M1 with M2 and it would make more sense. Theory plus practical.

 

[griff2]

A bigger question remains than that of cc or power-to-weight restrictions for new riders.

Maybe the question should be whether government should mandate power to gross regsitered weight restrictions on all vehicles. While have 440 HP on hand in a heavy Ford F350 pick-up that is used for towing up to 26,500 lbs makes reasonable sense, is there any good reason why such power should be available in a Mustang for street use, or worse, 200+ HP in a motorcycle for street use?

Maybe the KTM CEO has it right - "But let’s be honest, if your Superbike is reaching 200 horsepower or more, it’s impossible to argue that it belongs on the street. It really doesn’t, anymore."

Whether it's a sportbike in the hands of a new rider, or a supersport bike in the hands of an average rider, or high-powered sports car in the hands of the typical average driver who many riders here deride as having miserably abhorrent driving skill, how much vehicle is too much vehicle for reasonably safe use in an average person's hands?

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