anyone switched from gas to diesel car and never looked back?

[K1200RS]

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hi, thinking about getting a vw tdi. never owned a diesel before so dont know what i'm getting myself into. i always hear tdi has really good fuel economy.

should i do it?

VW diesels are great when they work but as noted by Brian P. and others, compliance with the specified maintenance intervals and the use of the specified consumables are both critical. I believe too that it is a mistake to buy a used VW unless you can be 100 percent certain that the car was treated properly.

My own experience with a VW TDI (2002) is that a turbocharger failed. The cost of replacement obliterated any fuel savings. That cost, along with the cost to maintain and fix a fragile and limited-travel suspension, and a host of electrical problems has made this the most expensive to maintain car I have ever owned.

I would steer clear of VWs in general unless you are prepared and capable to do a lot of the work yourself. I have a garage, Peter's VW in Toronto, that has treated me well but I get the distinct feeling that all garages regard loyal VW owners who hold onto their aging cars as both gamblers and cash cows. Having said this, Peter's VW has treated me well but I have certainly paid for that privilege. Don't get me started on the dealerships. There is no place in Hell that is hot enough, or big enough, to hold those scum.

I would wait for the new Mazda or other alternatives once any teething problems are worked out.

 

[BLUE_KAWI]

Watch out for the VW/Audi DSG transmissions. A regular service is around $480!

 

[BLUE_KAWI]

WTF? How is that possible?

If GM is bringing a diesel to North America, you can count on Toyota/Honda/Nissan to do the same. Honda has some amazing diesel Accords in UK.

http://efficientautomobile.com/2013-honda-accord-diesel-usa/


http://media.caranddriver.com/image...ged-diesel-engine-photo-221141-s-1280x782.jpg



I would wait for the big players to come into this market. If that happens VW/Audi will lose control of this niche market.

http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...arison-test-hybrid-vs-tdi-vs-gli-vs-25-review

The Hybrid blows the TDI out of the water when it comes to city fuel economy.

 

[RockerGuy]

Can someone explain what is exhaust fluid?

Plus, somebody wake me up when they finally bring a diesel suv that's not vw or other expensive brand

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[Brian P]

Watch out for the VW/Audi DSG transmissions. A regular service is around $480!

My dad has a DSG-TDI. The DSG fluid change is every 64,000 km. It's not THAT expensive ... not even at the dealer (he goes to Crosby VW in Kitchener). Yes, I have heard the horror stories. I don't know who the rip-off artists are.

It is possible to do the DSG fluid and filter change yourself. A VAG-COM or access to it is needed to ensure that the transmission is at the correct temperature ... but it appears that some folks have made a good old-fashioned estimate of the temperature and it appears to have been good enough.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=169356&highlight=DSG+fluid+change

Can someone explain what is exhaust fluid?

Most of the newest diesel engines use a process called Selective Catalytic Reduction to remove NOx from the exhaust. This is done by continuously injecting a small amount of a fluid that contains urea into the exhaust stream ahead of a catalyst that (A) breaks the urea down into ammonia and then (B) reacts the ammonia with NOx to form nitrogen and water.

That fluid is called AdBlue (its original trademarked name in the European market) or "diesel exhaust fluid" (the generic name that appears to have taken hold in North America).

When diesel vehicles with SCR came on the North American market, the availability of DEF was in question, but as of right now, you can get it all over the place. Dealer, Canadian Tire, truck stops, parts jobbers. Most diesel vehicles contain a tank of DEF that is meant to be big enough to last for longer than the car's normal maintenance interval, and when you take the car in to the dealer for maintenance, the dealer should top it off. If you do your own maintenance, or if your driving patterns are such that the vehicle uses an abnormal amount of DEF, that's what Canadian Tire, truck stops, and parts jobbers are for.

Plus, somebody wake me up when they finally bring a diesel suv that's not vw or other expensive brand

The Mazda 6 is slated for the first North American application of Mazda's Skyactiv-D diesel engine, but the CX-5 is already sold with that engine in the rest of the world, and it's likely only a matter of time before that shows up here. My understanding has been that the main problem with CX-5 diesel availability has been that Mazda can't build enough of them. It was a surprise hit in normally-diesel-averse Japan.

The diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee will be re-introduced shortly, too ... this time, with the Fiat / VM Motori 3.0 V6 rather than the Mercedes engine it used a few years ago.

 

[SunnY S]

WTF? How is that possible?

If GM is bringing a diesel to North America, you can count on Toyota/Honda/Nissan to do the same. Honda has some amazing diesel Accords in UK.

http://efficientautomobile.com/2013-honda-accord-diesel-usa/


http://media.caranddriver.com/image...ged-diesel-engine-photo-221141-s-1280x782.jpg



I would wait for the big players to come into this market. If that happens VW/Audi will lose control of this niche market.

Keep dreaming. Honda will not be bringing a diesel to North America. They are way into the next gen hybrid tech which you will see shortly in the new Accord, RLX and NSX.

Mazda is a small fish in this field and doesn't have any significant hybrid tech (they are currently "borrowing" Toyota tech and testing out a Mazda 6 hybrid), so they have no choice but to push the diesel option. Short sighted.

Repeat after me... Hybrids and electrics are the future, and the future is here.

 

[RockerGuy]

Most of the newest diesel engines use a process called Selective Catalytic Reduction to remove NOx from the exhaust. This is done by continuously injecting a small amount of a fluid that contains urea into the exhaust stream ahead of a catalyst that (A) breaks the urea down into ammonia and then (B) reacts the ammonia with NOx to form nitrogen and water.

That fluid is called AdBlue (its original trademarked name in the European market) or "diesel exhaust fluid" (the generic name that appears to have taken hold in North America).

When diesel vehicles with SCR came on the North American market, the availability of DEF was in question, but as of right now, you can get it all over the place. Dealer, Canadian Tire, truck stops, parts jobbers. Most diesel vehicles contain a tank of DEF that is meant to be big enough to last for longer than the car's normal maintenance interval, and when you take the car in to the dealer for maintenance, the dealer should top it off. If you do your own maintenance, or if your driving patterns are such that the vehicle uses an abnormal amount of DEF, that's what Canadian Tire, truck stops, and parts jobbers are for.



The Mazda 6 is slated for the first North American application of Mazda's Skyactiv-D diesel engine, but the CX-5 is already sold with that engine in the rest of the world, and it's likely only a matter of time before that shows up here. My understanding has been that the main problem with CX-5 diesel availability has been that Mazda can't build enough of them. It was a surprise hit in normally-diesel-averse Japan.

The diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee will be re-introduced shortly, too ... this time, with the Fiat / VM Motori 3.0 V6 rather than the Mercedes engine it used a few years ago.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess DEF do not impact the performance of the vehicle, only the emissions


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[Jayv]

Repeat after me... Hybrids and electrics are the future, and the future is here.

That depends on whether or not our neighbours to the south would rather drive an electric sewing machine or settle for something that rattles but provides torque.

 

[SunnY S]

That depends on whether or not our neighbours to the south would rather drive an electric sewing machine or settle for something that rattles but provides torque.

Somebodys buying them.

and somebody is liking them.

 

[RockerGuy]

I thought only women buy electric hybrids??

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[Brian P]

In every market worldwide where diesel engines are available in a significant range of different makes and models, diesel sales >> hybrid sales, and they've done so without benefit of any of the various tax incentives that have been in place to encourage alternative powertrains. Toyota themselves sell more diesels than Priuses in Europe (by a lot).

Should also note that diesel engines and hybrid-electric powertrains are not mutually exclusive - just costly. In Europe, where fuel costs more or less double what it does in USA, there are a few diesel-electric hybrids on the market today ... and that combination is available in commercial vehicles in the North American market.

 

[Roomie]

Owning several German diesels, I whole hearted agree with Brian P. Follow the service intervals and fluid specs to the letter and you will be good to go.

This. Apparently following maintenance properly is too much for some. I've logged many many miles, worked on and owned countless german cars (3 tdi's to date) and never have had one single issue in 14 years.

WTF? How is that possible?

If GM is bringing a diesel to North America, you can count on Toyota/Honda/Nissan to do the same. Honda has some amazing diesel Accords in UK.

http://efficientautomobile.com/2013-honda-accord-diesel-usa/


http://media.caranddriver.com/image...ged-diesel-engine-photo-221141-s-1280x782.jpg



I would wait for the big players to come into this market. If that happens VW/Audi will lose control of this niche market.

Big players? VW is one of the top car makers in the world owning much more than just vw. GM is not even in the same class of automobile in any way shape or form.

That depends on whether or not our neighbours to the south would rather drive an electric sewing machine or settle for something that rattles but provides torque.

Go for a ride in a new tdi anything. I think you would be surprised at how quiet they are. Gone are the rattle rattle days.

Its just sad that the only diesel car available has the horrendous VW badge attached to it and all the BS that comes from that. Well, now we have the Cruze diesel, we'll see how that goes seeing as how they priced it right around the same price as a Jetta TDI, and for some awful reason North America sees the Jetta and VW and as a more "prestigious" brand.

This is my favorite debate. That horrendous badge comes with years and years of r&d, experience and a well tested product. Half if not more of the "issues" everyone hears or reads about are related to our horrible fuel. Diesel in EU is greatly different. That said, not every tdi has an issue. So really you want to compare a gm product, an econo box at that and wonder why the jetta is regarded as prestigious? Two words. Fit and finish, something gm doesn't understand at all. For example, I have a gti from the 90's. It's about 2 inches from the ground, has the dreaded vr6 in it and to this day doesn't squeak, shake, rattle or make any other sound while driving down the road. It's fuel mileage is great for what it is and the car has been problem free since the original owner bought it new (I'm the second owner) In 2008 I had a brand new civic si. While comfortable and great on fuel, it squeaked inside from day 1 and no one at two different dealerships could fix it. Modern things like gm/ford/dodge are just cheap inside and that's a turn off for a lot of people.

 

[Red_Liner740]

I sure hope you are talking about a mk2 gen Jetta/Golf, as the Mk3 is when thing went to ****...i had a mk3 golf and it was one of the worst cars i owned. period.

When i was talking about the VW badge, i was specifically talking about everything but the TDI engine...only time ppl have issues with those is when they dont do the TB on time and it lets go, they dont rebuild the head just slap a new TB on and in 5K it drops a valve that was previously smashed against the piston.

That and the wrong fuel being used.

VW is NOT a prestigious brand, anywhere else in the world its just an econo box.

 

[RockerGuy]

I drove a rental Jetta. I got motion sickness, no joke

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[Red_Liner740]

Yuup, i had a rental VW Jetta 2011 model i drove for a week around montreal two summers ago....the 2.0T DSG....engine was nice, but the interior was bland, i had to slam the pass door otherwise it would only partially close, interior was cheap and junky....

I drove a rental Jetta. I got motion sickness, no joke

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[GreyGhost]

VW Diesels have been in the family for a long time (probably about 1974 for the first one). Old 50hp engines were pretty good, amazing fuel mileage (>50mpg)(Averaging ~300K on these cars before selling), terribly slow, 90hp turbo diesel (MkIII) much faster with terrible fuel mileage (if you really worked it hard you could get below 20 mpg)(sold at 180K, ate belts, alternators and A/C compressors), 90hp TDI (MkIV) decent performance, fuel mileage ~50mpg. The turbo went on one TDI at 130K (leased car returned at that point), the next tdi (2003 Golf) is still working reasonably well at >320K. I just sold it for 3K as is. Certified and e-tested, similar cars are getting $5000. I think that is impressive resale value for an old high-mileage car.

To replace the golf I looked at Elantra, Mazda 3 Sport Sky and Golf TDI. Hated the Mazda, the Elantra was OK, but the golf felt like home. Once you get used to the torque from a diesel, having to downshift a few gears just to pass in the gas cars is annoying. Depreciation costs for the three cars are similar. The resale on the mazda and elantra aren't as good as the TDI and I have my doubts about them as they age (most 10 year old mazdas are pretty rusty and although Hyundai has dramatically improved, I am still not convinced about owning one for a decade). Both the Mazda and Elantra start substantially cheaper, so the yearly depreciation is close. The question that it came down to was would the fuel savings of the TDI offset the increased maintenance costs likely associated with the VW. For me, they did (and Owasco was fantastic and gave me a great price) and I am picking up a new one soon.

I appreciate Brian P's comments and highly respect his opinion which made me think long and hard about picking up a new one, but waiting for the new TDI (or Mazda diesel) wasn't really an option for me. The way I see it, people are currently asking more for 1 year old TDI's than I paid for mine new (out-the-door) so if it is giving me a lot of problems, I can dump it in a year or two and get something else (I expect depreciation of about $2700/yr based on ~30,000 km/year).

One interesting thing is most of the cars I test drove tell you what gear they want you to be in (all standard cars). The VW told me to switch to 6th at less than 60 km/h which resulted in lugging along at ~1000 rpm. I don't know about that, although it pulled along fine, I can't see that being good for the bearings in the long run. I expect I will try to keep it at >1500, both to save the bearings and to have some acceleration, obviously acceleration in 6th at 1000rpm is abysmal.

 

[optionfa]

Iv had my 2012 Jetta TDI for a year and a half now (48,000km), I drive a lot.

Diesel is the only way to go for a commuter in my opinion hybrid and electrics are ********.

I'v had no issues with the car so far, you can't beat the fuel economy and the fact that it makes around 240lb of torque means it doesn't suck to drive like any other gas engine that's even close in fuel economy.

It handles well, looks good, finish is great. The only downside is it's not a cheap car, you would have to drive a lot for it to make sense in km/$.

It's about time other car manufacturers are taking deisel seriously in north america, the mazda skyactive-D should worth looking at and it's about damn time one of those doofus truck manufacturers made a half ton V6 diesel.

 

[BLUE_KAWI]

I was talking about Toyota (biggest car maker in the world), Nissan/Reanult, etc. If Toyota started bringing their engines over, it would be game over for VW in this market.

Big players? VW is one of the top car makers in the world owning much more than just vw. GM is not even in the same class of automobile in any way shape or form.

 

[Brian P]

^ In terms of worldwide sales volume, GM, Toyota, and the VW group are all neck and neck. In terms of profits ... the VW group is head and shoulders above everyone else.

After more than a decade of flogging hybrids as the Next Great Thing in the North American market, Toyota is unlikely to bring their (otherwise very good) diesel engines over here, barring some sort of miraculous occurrence that forces them to do so. In Europe, where they sell diesels, hybrids, and conventional gasoline powered vehicles, the diesels destroy the hybrids in terms of sales volume.

Nissan/Renault are not major players in the worldwide market compared to GM, Toyota, and VW. Nissan still has their heart set on all-electric. So far, the sales volume has not come anywhere close to meeting expectations, and I strongly suspect that the sales volume that you see for the Nissan Leaf is pretty close to the total available sales volume for an all-electric car in that size and performance range, and that if any other competitors introduced something competitive, any sales of that competitor would simply be cutting into Leaf sales (which is pretty likely ... the Leaf is as attractive as a cow's rump). The other interesting connection is that Mercedes has a connection with Nissan/Renault, too, and there is going to be some powertrain and component sharing happening in the very near future.

 

[SunnY S]

I consider the diesel market (esp in NA) to be much like the PC market. Yes, Lenovo had a record sales year in PC sales, but its becoming quite clear that there is no future in PC's as the market shifts to mobile and manufacturers continue to churn out more and more appealing mobile options. The same will be true with electrics and hybrids.

From supercar makers like McLaren, Ferrari LaFerrari to Formula 1 new rule hybrid/energy recovery regulations, its quite clear which direction the industry is headed.

"Next to Tesla, and, perhaps Renault-Nissan, there isn’t an automaker in the world that’s putting as much faith and money into electric mobility as BMW."


Take a solid look at who's embracing new diesel tech in N.A., GM, Chrysler and Jeep. Some real winners in that list.

Chevy Cobalt diesel. You go, GM. You go!

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