Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

expanding use of or considering lithium-iron more and more

Having built a component-level LifePo4 (lithium iron phosphate) battery, I learned a TON on the topic.

The big benefits is that they are a stable chemistry (not prone to bursting into flames if damaged), and their energy density is amazing.

The biggest hurdle and perhaps a big reason their use EV's may never happen is that they absolutely positively can NOT be charged if even one of the cells is below the freezing point. If they are charged below freezing (at anything beyond a trickle, but that's another story and gets into nitty gritty details, but for all intents and purposes....they cannot be charged below zero degrees celsius) they are severely degraded at best, or permanently damaged/shorted out at worst - the pack would basically become non viable for the car any longer.

Yes, thermal management can ensure they never get that cold (or are warmed up before charging) and aren't damaged as a result, but that creates issues that will almost certainly hamper consumer adoption - would you buy a car where you might, under some circumstances, not be able to charge it if it was left cold soaking somewhere for hours or days at well below zero? Even on the Volt which has amazing thermal management I've seen it take 15-20 minutes for the pack to warm up from deep cold (below -20) to above zero with the car turned on.

Yes, the pack could self-heat when the car is otherwise parked, but that consumes range, and again, would you want a car that had 60% range you arrived at a friends cottage late on a Friday night (with nowhere to plug in), and when you start it up Sunday afternoon to drive home you find it suddenly at 30% range because a 4-6kw heater cycled on and off all weekend long while it was sitting cold soaking?

There's enough hurdles to EV adoption as it is without these sorts of caveats that people can use to go "yeah, I don't want to deal with that BS".
 
Having built a component-level LifePo4 (lithium iron phosphate) battery, I learned a TON on the topic.

The big benefits is that they are a stable chemistry (not prone to bursting into flames if damaged), and their energy density is amazing.

The biggest hurdle and perhaps a big reason their use EV's may never happen is that they absolutely positively can NOT be charged if even one of the cells is below the freezing point. If they are charged below freezing (at anything beyond a trickle, but that's another story and gets into nitty gritty details, but for all intents and purposes....they cannot be charged below zero degrees celsius) they are severely degraded at best, or permanently damaged/shorted out at worst - the pack would basically become non viable for the car any longer.

Yes, thermal management can ensure they never get that cold (or are warmed up before charging) and aren't damaged as a result, but that creates issues that will almost certainly hamper consumer adoption - would you buy a car where you might, under some circumstances, not be able to charge it if it was left cold soaking somewhere for hours or days at well below zero? Even on the Volt which has amazing thermal management I've seen it take 15-20 minutes for the pack to warm up from deep cold (below -20) to above zero with the car turned on.

Yes, the pack could self-heat when the car is otherwise parked, but that consumes range, and again, would you want a car that had 60% range you arrived at a friends cottage late on a Friday night (with nowhere to plug in), and when you start it up Sunday afternoon to drive home you find it suddenly at 30% range because a 4-6kw heater cycled on and off all weekend long while it was sitting cold soaking?

There's enough hurdles to EV adoption as it is without these sorts of caveats that people can use to go "yeah, I don't want to deal with that BS".
???

They (in this context LFP) are already widely used in EVs, including Tesla standard range models.

 
???

They (in this context LFP) are already widely used in EVs, including Tesla standard range models.


Interesting, well, I'm out of the loop on the latest and greatest battery technology in use then apparently.

I'm curious on how they're dealing with the temperature issues I detailed above. Thermal management clearly in the end, but there's going to be times that an owner is going to try to charge and be told "nope, not gonna do it". Wonder if there's discussion specific to that already out there, I'll do some Googling.
 
I'm curious on how they're dealing with the temperature issues I detailed above. Thermal management clearly in the end, but there's going to be times that an owner is going to try to charge and be told "nope, not gonna do it".

Well, that didn't take long.



From the above reddit post:

At -40c however, the car doesn't charge at all when I get home. So I heat my garage a bit and get the temperature just a bit above freezing, and I wait 2 or 3 hours for the battery to warm a bit, and the battery starts charging at about -5 degrees at a rate of 1kW, or 6.7km/hr. In the summer I usually get 8.2km/hr charging, but this is insignificantly different. As an experiment, I drove to the supercharger to see how it would perform, and here I had a surprise: it would not charge. With an ice-cold battery, sitting outside all day, even with a full 20 minute climate precondition (through the app) before driving, and then a 10 minute "precondition for fast charging" on the way there, the charge rate at the supercharger was zero. It drew from 3-10kW from the charger, but spent 20 minutes heating the battery to charge but it was ineffective. After 25 minutes I gave up and went home, warmed the battery in the garage, and it charged normally. So, this was a big lesson for me: the LFP battery does not charge at all when it is extremely cold

There ya go. This is a BIG issue. Yeah, Tesla owners with their usual reality-distortion-field may be willing to accept this, but can you imagine one of the Big3 putting out a car that simply won't charge in typical Canadian weather?
 
I don't think I'd be looking at an EV with -40C as a typical winter temperature. The battery tech isn't there as we can see from the single example above.

In the GTA / South of Algonquin...I don't think this would be a major issue, but I'd think twice about driving to Algonquin in -10 to -20C temps with an EV.
 
I don't think I'd be looking at an EV with -40C as a typical winter temperature. The battery tech isn't there as we can see from the single example above.

In the GTA / South of Algonquin...I don't think this would be a major issue, but I'd think twice about driving to Algonquin in -10 to -20C temps with an EV.
Well that specific example, Tesla swapped in battery packs that are much worse for cold than every other EV in the market. The constant "improvements" between purchase and delivery don't always make it a better vehicle and in-fact could completely ruin it for a persons intended use.
 
Well that specific example, Tesla swapped in battery packs that are much worse for cold than every other EV in the market. The constant "improvements" between purchase and delivery don't always make it a better vehicle and in-fact could completely ruin it for a persons intended use.
One question would be that if they elected to put it an 'inferior' or 'cheaper' battery pack...did the price drop accordingly?
 
One question would be that if they elected to put it an 'inferior' or 'cheaper' battery pack...did the price drop accordingly?
It may not be inferior or cheaper. LFP has some positive qualities (less chance of burning your house down for example). Of course price didn't drop. That's not how tesla works. With the big delays between ordering and delivery, you need to decide what changes (if any) are enough for you to pull the plug. They will hand you back your deposit and everybody walks away (while you join another line).
 
6.5 weeks with the Niro

Finally bought fuel

36 litres
just under 1900 kms

The 1st couple months the car has been a city car only with most daily trips at or under 100 kms.

Had a 350 km day yesterday. Was able to give it a charge at my destination before the return journey. With the cooler temperatures yesterday I think EV mode was about 80 km of the 350 kms.

Very pleased that overall it was 3.97 litre per 100 km for the day. Just under the 4 litre mark.
 
LG had some quality-control issues (Kona, Bolt) but I believe those are behind them. The faults were identified and rectified at the battery plant.

The quality issues were that a robot was out of calibration and was applying bad welds. This is the same reason that the company who built the bus batteries that I used for my V-Star conversion went out of business. (they couldn't afford the rework costs that GM and LG were able to afford)

Not only have I torn down and rebuilt a massive EV battery, I work in robotics for automotive parts supplier. Making weld adjustments on our robots is very common and 20-50 welds is allot on our parts. There are thousands of welds in each battery. If we miss a bad weld then we get our hand slapped for a loose body panel at the customer. Bad welds on a fully assembled battery will never be found and will usually just cause a shortened life but can cause a burned down garage.

Like most modern issues the truth lays somewhere in the middle of those with extreme views. EVs are not going to save the world, they're also not going to burn uncontrollably for 30 days after a battery fire as my mother in law believes.
 
My sister and I had to go to Quebec over the weekend to attend a funeral.

We took the train (driving a long distance given the continued concussion symptom thing wasn't in the cards) so we rented a car on arrival as we had to get around of course.

We ended up with a giant Jeep Cherokee.

Within the first 5 minutes both my sister and I (she owns a pure EV as well) realized how much we did NOT miss the gas vehicle experience. The acceleration seems so jerky as it shifted gears instead of the nice linear acceleration we've become used to with the EV's. The NOISE, ugh...the noise - the engine, road, and wind noise was one thing but this stupid thing had unnecessarily large tires with obnoxious levels of tire noise as well.

Worst part, we did about 50km of city driving and I drove super gently and it yielded over 15L/100km. We had to drive about 80km of highway to get to and from the funeral and even at 90-100kph the BEST it got was 11L/100KM. Over a few hundred KM mixed we ended up returning it with an average 13.5L/100km. Our Volt gets better fuel economy than that....pulling our camper!

Why anyone would want to own one of those things I'll never understand....it wasn't even 4WD which I thought was kind of standard on Jeeps....so if you actually took it into any sort of serious off road situation I'm pretty confident this turd would be stuck in the first mudpuddle you drove through.

Yes, it was a big SUV so comparing apples and oranges to an EV isn't fair at all, but even when I've driven in friends' comparable ICE cars in the last few months all the noise and typical ICE traits seem so obnoxious now.
 
My sister and I had to go to Quebec over the weekend to attend a funeral.

We took the train (driving a long distance given the continued concussion symptom thing wasn't in the cards) so we rented a car on arrival as we had to get around of course.

We ended up with a giant Jeep Cherokee.

Within the first 5 minutes both my sister and I (she owns a pure EV as well) realized how much we did NOT miss the gas vehicle experience. The acceleration seems so jerky as it shifted gears instead of the nice linear acceleration we've become used to with the EV's. The NOISE, ugh...the noise - the engine, road, and wind noise was one thing but this stupid thing had unnecessarily large tires with obnoxious levels of tire noise as well.

Worst part, we did about 50km of city driving and I drove super gently and it yielded over 15L/100km. We had to drive about 80km of highway to get to and from the funeral and even at 90-100kph the BEST it got was 11L/100KM. Over a few hundred KM mixed we ended up returning it with an average 13.5L/100km. Our Volt gets better fuel economy than that....pulling our camper!

Why anyone would want to own one of those things I'll never understand....it wasn't even 4WD which I thought was kind of standard on Jeeps....so if you actually took it into any sort of serious off road situation I'm pretty confident this turd would be stuck in the first mudpuddle you drove through.

Yes, it was a big SUV so comparing apples and oranges to an EV isn't fair at all, but even when I've driven in friends' comparable ICE cars in the last few months all the noise and typical ICE traits seem so obnoxious now.
spot-on. Unless it's something sporty with a great sound and analog driving feel, I don't think I could go back to any ICE as a daily.
My wife's/family car is an entry level Benz and even that drivetrain feels archaic and unrefined every time I drive it.
 
Insurance would hate you but good on him for turning a stinking turd into something better. You'd be eligible for green plates too as MTO would see it as a Leaf.


nissan-leaf-hybrid-kawasaki-engine.jpg


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A flip of the switch initiates full EV mode, its 100-hp motor enough to move the car around town. Another click and the future is a thing of the past as the 174-hp ZX10R takes over. Additionally, there's a third option available, which mates a strictly EV and motorcycle-derived internal combustion engine together in a way that no one ever intended. The result is 281-hp transferred through all four wheels
 
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This could be a legitimate threat to increased EV uptake. If manufacturers continue to design to prevent repairs and price replacement parts to the moon, ev insurance could follow motorcycle insurance and price most people out even if they can afford the vehicle. It will be interesting to see what happens with EV premiums over time wrt ice vehicles.

 
Seems to be mostly a Tesla problem. No surprise there... IMO this structural battery pack idea is a bad idea long term.
I agree that it is mostly tesla headed down this path. Easy enough for insurance to pick up on that if it starts to become an issue. Like bikes they'll still sell a lot to unsuspecting suckers but those that run numbers may choose an alternate to lower tco. So far tesla insurance doesnt sound inordinately expensive but that could change.
 
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