Here's a little more food for thought.....once upon a time canada used to be one of the best aircraft manufacturers in the world. Given most people believe that any threat to our borders is not imminent, wouldn't investment in manufacturing for our own military equipment be a better thing to do both economically and in terms of national pride?
Who cares about the long gun registry?
- Thread starter Duster929
- Start date
Canada has been involved in the development of this aircraft. Anger over a lack of tender ignores the fact that we have already contributed over $200M towards development costs, in order to get the specific aircraft that would do the job for us.
The concept of having an aircraft that is common to our allies is a pretty important one, given the numerous joint missions we've been involved in of late. United Nations Peacekeeping missions also benefit from common equipment.
According to the "Memorandum of Understanding" competition would be held, to determine what contractors would be best able to supply the necessary components. This explicitly includes contractors in the "member nations" (The United States, United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Australia).
The concept of having an aircraft that is common to our allies is a pretty important one, given the numerous joint missions we've been involved in of late. United Nations Peacekeeping missions also benefit from common equipment.
According to the "Memorandum of Understanding" competition would be held, to determine what contractors would be best able to supply the necessary components. This explicitly includes contractors in the "member nations" (The United States, United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Australia).
Price to come down? RM your in the military, price never comes down, F35's and F150's are different vehicles.
I had dinner yesterday with a guy that was in military procurement for a few years, hes pretty convinced the current costs being shown to the public is a couple billion light on the real cost. McKay is a very sneaky guy.
The whole current government is more than merely secretive. They conveniently left out all of the upkeep costs.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-down-to-accounting-differences-peter-mackay/
McKay blames "different accounting practices" for the difference of $10B in prices. I wonder if they had the same accountant prepare their costs for the new prisons?
Also assuming that the F-18s would actually be mothballed, which I think is rather premature.
I took it to mean running costs in any scenario. If we kept the CF18s, that would be the projected cost of upkeep and service including personnel and fuel. If we get new jets, those upkeep costs (personnel and fuel) basically transfer onto the new equipment. If this is true, I don't see why it WOULD be bunched in with the purchase price of new aircraft. When we buy new tanks or ships does the salary of all the existing crew and the cost of all the fuel go into the price? I don't think so... they're existing and ongoing expenses, regardless of the purchase.
I would debate that, if it means buying a whole whack of spares along with the aircraft. It's like getting a racebike without spares; it doesn't generally happen.
There's also the issue that costs have risen substantially on the basic aircraft, exclusive of such additional costs.
+1, qft.
so many of the people attempting to justify the blank cheques and flat out lies we're being sold are painting some chicken little scenarios that range from unlikely to patently ludicrous.
any military power that could potentially have an airforce with bombers attacking our navy (in addition to their boats encroaching upon ours) would most likely have the military wherewithal to flatten us, regardless of our 'f35' presence.
let's look at this northern scenario. there are five countries with northern claims of sovereignty.
denmark does not possess the military combination mentioned, possessing neither bombers or naval craft capable of extending the range of their fighters.
norway is virtually identical to denmark in the capabilities.
canada is third
russia and the u.s. are the other two. if either of those countries reached the point where they were willing to commit to a military engagement with canada, we'd be a pimple on their arse.
furthermore, someone needs to explain a scenario where the u.s. doesn't just take whatever the heck they want from us anyways, with or without our consent. i have a relative in our navy. if the u.s. sailed a fraction of the boats they have in harbour in maryland into the north, there is no way in hell our full consignment of f35s would or could do squat to stop them. besides, we'd probably already have signed a deal handing rights over to them long before that happened.
people whinged long and hard about olympic bids being 'breads not circuses'. . .well, the biggest circus in the world has come to town, and apparently some of us are buying, hook line and sinker, with our federal government openly misleading us, lying to our faces when they know the truth. the f35 boondoggle has not yet reached its final elevated cost--it has consistently missed development deadlines, costs have risen non-stop, and any estimates previously given are a joke. by the time we supposedly get our jets (many years past the original date) it will be at a cost where the overage alone would have paid for the gun registry 10X plus plus plus.
bottom line, the cons clearly did not bother doing their due diligence. it's pretty clear that there are alternatives which they didn't give proper investigation to--they pushed the dnd to give them the answers they wanted, and then made their decision based on that. we deserve better. our taxpaying pocketbooks deserve better.
^ Another staunch Liberal supporter conveniently forgets that our involvement in the JSF precedes this government, and the last government, and the one before that, and the one before that.... all the way back to Chretien in 1997, and then Chretien again (with a cheque for $150M) in 2002 to re-confirm our efforts.
But yeah it's all Stephen Harper's doing... I heard he designed the jets himself!!!
The best part is that this money hasn't even been spent, and the purchase is far from finalized. Leave it to the CBC and Toronto Star to sensationalize and dress the issue for the masses.
And I'll say this: if you're not there with a show of force, the land ain't yours. If the US starts sending their ships and aircraft to further patrol our sovereign territory, because we don't have the equipment to do it ourselves, they'll eventually go on to make a very peaceful and bureaucratic claim to it... and they'll own it. The idea is that these jets (or whatever jets we get) won't even have to fire a single missile to do the job.
But yeah it's all Stephen Harper's doing... I heard he designed the jets himself!!!
The best part is that this money hasn't even been spent, and the purchase is far from finalized. Leave it to the CBC and Toronto Star to sensationalize and dress the issue for the masses.
And I'll say this: if you're not there with a show of force, the land ain't yours. If the US starts sending their ships and aircraft to further patrol our sovereign territory, because we don't have the equipment to do it ourselves, they'll eventually go on to make a very peaceful and bureaucratic claim to it... and they'll own it. The idea is that these jets (or whatever jets we get) won't even have to fire a single missile to do the job.
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^ Another staunch Liberal supporter conveniently forgets that our involvement in the JSF precedes this government, and the last government, and the one before that, and the one before that.... all the way back to Chretien in 1997, and then Chretien again (with a cheque for $150M) in 2002 to re-confirm our efforts.
But yeah it's all Stephen Harper's doing... I heard he designed the jets himself!!!
The best part is that this money hasn't even been spent, and the purchase is far from finalized. Leave it to the CBC and Toronto Star to sensationalize and dress the issue for the masses.
And I'll say this: if you're not there with a show of force, the land ain't yours. If the US starts sending their ships and aircraft to further patrol our sovereign territory, because we don't have the equipment to do it ourselves, they'll eventually go on to make a very peaceful and bureaucratic claim to it... and they'll own it. The idea is that these jets (or whatever jets we get) won't even have to fire a single missile to do the job.
what the heck does chretien's gov't have to do with the actions of our current government in terms of lying to the public and failing to do their due diligence?
lol, guess the harper cons can wash their hands of that?
pathetic logic on your part.
the harper government needs to be responsible for their actions. they aren't. face it, we were lied to. i clearly remember there were some who bought the cons version of events with regards to the f35 boondoggle. i wasn't one of them. i said then, and repeat it here--investigate the alternatives. the f35 is a money pit that harpo needs to get his head out of the sand on, and realize that he should do his job.
the harper gov't has been selling us a bill of goods on the f35 for years. not the liberals. who's running the show? who's playing with our tax dollars right now?
stop the lies, give the taxpayers the true cost and truth (that it'll be many billions of dollars more than they said it would cost, and that it'll be years later than promised).
we are evaluating the performance of the harper government on this issue, and they are failing. with our money. your tax dollars. mine.
btw, in what world would canada stand a chance against an american claim to the north? in what alternate universe would our f35s be any sort of military deterrent against the u.s.? and since when has legal right backed by international treaty ever stopped the u.s. from doing what it wanted with us? if the u.s. wants something from us, it will get it. jets or no jets. signed treaty or no signed treaty.
How very Canadian of you. "They're bigger than us, hide under your desks and give up now!" Pathetic and cowardly, you're an embarrassment.
You think the Chinese and the Russians are probing that territory for fun, because they're bored? Why do you think the Russians have been sending bombers up there for the last 5 years and testing NORAD's response? Why do you think the Chinese have been sending icebreakers and other ships to the territory for the last few years? Why do you think they're trying to lay 20% claim to the Arctic resources based on their "20% of the world's population"?
There is immense value up there and the world knows it. You guys are criticizing our government for wanting to protect that land with the best military technology money can buy? You seriously see NO value in having the same equipment that our allies and NORAD partner will also be using?
I forgot, you're all military procurement specialists and have studied the issue more than anyone in "Harper's government" and CLEARLY the purchase is so stupid, that nobody sane would even think of going through with it.
Forget the jets and ships, lets build more schools... maybe we can start teaching Russian and Chinese to our children, they'll need it in 30 years.
You think the Chinese and the Russians are probing that territory for fun, because they're bored? Why do you think the Russians have been sending bombers up there for the last 5 years and testing NORAD's response? Why do you think the Chinese have been sending icebreakers and other ships to the territory for the last few years? Why do you think they're trying to lay 20% claim to the Arctic resources based on their "20% of the world's population"?
There is immense value up there and the world knows it. You guys are criticizing our government for wanting to protect that land with the best military technology money can buy? You seriously see NO value in having the same equipment that our allies and NORAD partner will also be using?
I forgot, you're all military procurement specialists and have studied the issue more than anyone in "Harper's government" and CLEARLY the purchase is so stupid, that nobody sane would even think of going through with it.
Forget the jets and ships, lets build more schools... maybe we can start teaching Russian and Chinese to our children, they'll need it in 30 years.
According to who? The Star, and Bob The Sensationalist Rae?
I'll wait for someone to prove MacKay wrong before jumping on this "they're lying to us!!!" bandwagon, unlike some of you...
How very Canadian of you. "They're bigger than us, hide under your desks and give up now!" Pathetic and cowardly, you're an embarrassment.
You think the Chinese and the Russians are probing that territory for fun, because they're bored? Why do you think the Russians have been sending bombers up there for the last 5 years and testing NORAD's response? Why do you think the Chinese have been sending icebreakers and other ships to the territory for the last few years? Why do you think they're trying to lay 20% claim to the Arctic resources based on their "20% of the world's population"?
There is immense value up there and the world knows it. You guys are criticizing our government for wanting to protect that land with the best military technology money can buy? You seriously see NO value in having the same equipment that our allies and NORAD partner will also be using?
I forgot, you're all military procurement specialists and have studied the issue more than anyone in "Harper's government" and CLEARLY the purchase is so stupid, that nobody sane would even think of going through with it.
Forget the jets and ships, lets build more schools... maybe we can start teaching Russian and Chinese to our children, they'll need it in 30 years.
so in order to accomplish what you speak of, we should not hold our government accountable when they lie to us and fail to do their job???
your logical fallacies and failures are numerable.
first and foremost, point out where i say we should completely scrap the idea of replacing the f18s. we need new equipment. we just have to have due diligence.
second, we have attempted to stand up to the u.s. on many occasions in the past. know your history for the love of the baby jebus. we have come out on the wrong end time and time again. your lack of understanding of geo-politics is staggering. nowhere have i stated that canada should roll over and play dead. my point is that if the u.s., russia or even china came knocking, our pathetic contingent of f35s would be a gnat on the underbelly of any of those countries, and whether or not our forces could project any sort of strength would be meaningless. unless you live in a bizarro world where their militaries would in anyway be unhinged by ours, lol.
third, one of my issues from the beginning is how well harper's cons have been actually using their 'procurement specialists' if they only sought the answers they wanted, and then cut short any meaningful investigation of alternatives. play along at home, please.
admit it, harper's cons screwed up. time to go back and actually do the due diligence they should have all along. admit they misled us about the costs, and let's spend the money wisely, not haphazardly. harpo is claiming that fiscal prudence is their watch word. . .put their mouths where our money supposedly is.
finally, if anything protects our interests in the north, it will be the recognition by the big players (hint, we're not one of them) that they won't step on each other's toes without serious consequences. the fact that we will be viewed by the russias and chinas of the world as a mini-u.s. will not be affected one iota by us purchasing or not purchasing f35s. that's the geo-political truth.
Govt accounting practice will mean squat. The planes will cost what they cost, billions in spare parts will be purchased and parked around the country. This is a project that actually needs doing, if only so patrol aircraft can get safely home after being 1000nm from anywhere they could safely land. This isnt an episode of "ice pilots".
We haven't had an aircraft carrier in 40yrs so we need planes that can fly out and return to a base.
Lets just pray the only missiles they ever need launch are for target practice.
We haven't had an aircraft carrier in 40yrs so we need planes that can fly out and return to a base.
Lets just pray the only missiles they ever need launch are for target practice.
The billions in spare parts and maintenance is already included in the $15B estimate. The extra $10B comes from "operating and salary" costs which are incurred REGARDLESS.. whether we buy Saab's, F-35s, or nothing at all. Therefore I don't consider it shady accounting at all. Why would you include the ongoing costs of salary and operations in the purchase of a new aircraft? Those costs are there right now, they're part of the military budget... those costs will be there whether we buy these planes or not. $15B is the pricetag, as far as Im concerned. That means its $15B spent in addition to the normal budget of $10B. How this is a lie, is beyond me.
Oh and btw lets put these numbers into some perspective. $15B over 20 years is $750M per year. The operational and salary costs (regardless of purchase) to run our fleet of jets (whatever they may be) is an additional $10B, or $500M per year. That's $1.25B per year, to have a fleet of the latest and greatest military jets money can buy... and all the money it takes to run them, maintain them, and pay everyone associated with the program.
The total Federal Government program spending last year was almost $280B.
The jets would account for less than half of one per cent of our total annual spending. 0.5% to ensure we have the best possible protection of our northern borders? I'll sign the cheque...
The total Federal Government program spending last year was almost $280B.
The jets would account for less than half of one per cent of our total annual spending. 0.5% to ensure we have the best possible protection of our northern borders? I'll sign the cheque...
^ Another staunch Liberal supporter conveniently forgets that our involvement in the JSF precedes this government, and the last government, and the one before that, and the one before that.... all the way back to Chretien in 1997, and then Chretien again (with a cheque for $150M) in 2002 to re-confirm our efforts.
But yeah it's all Stephen Harper's doing... I heard he designed the jets himself!!!
The best part is that this money hasn't even been spent, and the purchase is far from finalized. Leave it to the CBC and Toronto Star to sensationalize and dress the issue for the masses.
And I'll say this: if you're not there with a show of force, the land ain't yours. If the US starts sending their ships and aircraft to further patrol our sovereign territory, because we don't have the equipment to do it ourselves, they'll eventually go on to make a very peaceful and bureaucratic claim to it... and they'll own it. The idea is that these jets (or whatever jets we get) won't even have to fire a single missile to do the job.
Hey, it's only fair that the Conservatives take the blame for this. After all, Harper pretty much took credit for the banking regulations, that previous governments put in place :lol:
We need to be able to make a show of force, when it's required. This might be an issue where Norway and Denmark are concerned, as they are roughly on-par with us militarily. I'm sure that England never thought that they would have to go to war with Argentina.
If we have to deal with Russian incursions then we need to have comparable equipment, to be able to stand them off. We wouldn't be doing it alone, but rather in concert with the United States.
.... unless of course we continue in the vein of expecting the US to defend us from the rest of the world and using our cash elsewhere, which I can tell you is the sort of behaviour that pisses Americans off no end, in which case it would be the Americans taking over the north. If we don't help defend it, then we don't deserve it in their eyes.
THAT is how buying something like the F25 helps defend us from the US.
