Whitby Accident Victim Identified

[thumpit]

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Well for starters, there is somethings called professionalism, intergrity, credibility. Perhaps you don't believe in this kind of thing, but many do.

Secondly, the final decision is not that of the investigators, but of the director, who is not or has not been a cop.

As well SIU investigators are not allowed to work in the areas they policed in.

As far as training people, it would take several years to gain the experience needed.

I would call into question; anyone's credibility who can't admit that there is certainly a very real chance of loyalty/political influence by any cop and SIU to their past (even if "As well SIU investigators are not allowed to work in the areas they policed in"). The blue comfort blanket wraps up broad boundaries. The system is far from being perfect.

If anyone thinks "professionalism, intergrity- oookaay, ha/integrity, and credibility" shouldn't be questioned and is unequivocal in a system that condones preferential treatment among their own, (using a simple traffic roadside stop, as just one {at the time the off-duty officer hands the on-duty his driver's licence with his badge clearly visible} example) then you think with a level of naivety better suiting of a preteen.

This is all about perception. It does not matter if the siu is made up of a bunch of saint like ex cops who have absolutely no personal biases towards their fellow officers. It does not matter if they are completely objective. What matters is that it looks like it is a situation ripe for abuse. Can you not on any level see how the public might perceive this?

Right. Especially when favourtism and preferential treatment happens among their own. And, how often do we hear a broadcast get wrapped up with the forces best PR guy saying: "We don't expect to find any wrong doings on the part of the officers involved with this case".

Yes, I can see it.

But look at the rest of the country and show me a better system.

And how bout suggestions for a better system???

Training someone for a couple years comes no where close to the experience of someone who worked the job for 30 years.

Better system? For starters, don't allow preferential treatment and favourtism on the roadside.
Or when the wife of an alcoholic cop (who has let the stress of his drinking and job, affect his rational state and had been abusing her) calls the police, don't be sweeping her concerns and complaint under the rug just to protect one of their own. You want others? I have plenty. Anyone who has been merely awake in society for 20 years or more has no shortage of examples for potential improvement.

Plus....I never buy the excuse that it may be worse elsewhere in the world. We are in this country, and employ the police forces in this country, bound under this country's laws.

Or many people's nasty habit of embellishing how nice of a guy they were and the cop gave them attitude for absolutely no reason!!

Please point out the threats you are talking about....

Randomly? That's as doable as your claim it never happens.
They are not the saints you would attempt to have us believe here.

I have personally been the victim of mistaken-identity (just as one example) and became a victim of their 'never screwing up.'

And if you think that the odd driver doesn't get the wrath of a cop at the end of a day when he had a higher than everage number of true ******** previously, then see again my naivety comment above.

Please tell me how one would understand the inner-workings of the police while training "outside the police ranks".

The SIU reports to the Attorney General. What kind of "independent civilian organization" do you propose? How are members appointed to this civilian organization?

Well, you could start with the same criteria for picking a juror... at the very least. AAMOF, there are a lot more displays of honour among the general public in any impromptu situation, than there is with a paid 'association'/union employee. The emphasis here, being on the desire to defend their paycheck, and the embellishing that that might have to entail from time to time.

 

[OliverK]

Well, you could start with the same criteria for picking a juror... at the very least. AAMOF, there are a lot more displays of honour among the general public in any impromptu situation, than there is with a paid 'association'/union employee. The emphasis here, being on the desire to defend their paycheck, and the embellishing that that might have to entail from time to time.

So basically, you propose having a trial by jury for every death involving a police officer?

Edit: Please elaborate on the paycheque defending.

 

[Smokeandapancake]

So basically, you propose having a trial by jury for every death involving a police officer?

Or serious injury or alleged sexual assault......

 

[Mega Torque]

I have it from a very credible source that the Police know who they are looking for. They know make model and owner of bike. They also linked him to her through investigating her electronic devices.

Just a matter of time until they located him.

That is all I am going to disclose regarding this matter, so don't ask me questions, they will go unanswered!

 

[Smokeandapancake]

I have it from a very credible source that the Police know who they are looking for. They know make model and owner of bike. They also linked him to her through investigating her electronic devices.

Just a matter of time until they located him.

That is all I am going to disclose regarding this matter, so don't ask me questions, they will go unanswered!

Great news.

 

[RetroGrouch]

And it would take a very twisted personality to live with that ordeal on your plate your whole life.

There plenty of twisted people in this world that would value self-interest over a clear conscience. Many of whom ride motorcycles. I wouldn't hold my breath for this guy to give himself up to the police. He obviously does not want to be caught. Now I'm leaning more towards the probability he got away.

 

[thumpit]

So basically, you propose having a trial by jury for every death involving a police officer?

Edit: Please elaborate on the paycheque defending.

LOL, is there another site on the web whose participants put more words in each other's mouths? Some how I doubt it very much.

Re your request...no elaboration necessary. If you feel there is now, no other way of wording it would help you understand. Perhaps give it some more thought.

 

[thumpit]

Or serious injury or alleged sexual assault......

As if those wouldn't be serious enough allegations even in light of you choosing to go with the 'putting words in other's mouths' bandwagon..

Not going to try to reason with irrationality here...sorry it didn't work out for you.

 

[thumpit]

Great news.

Yes it is, even if you did decide to not address any of my points above.

I'll just write it off as a cop-out I guess :shrug:

 

[Smokeandapancake]

I would call into question; anyone's credibility who can't admit that there is certainly a very real chance of loyalty/political influence by any cop and SIU to their past (even if "As well SIU investigators are not allowed to work in the areas they policed in"). The blue comfort blanket wraps up broad boundaries. The system is far from being perfect.

If anyone thinks "professionalism, intergrity- oookaay, ha/integrity, and credibility" shouldn't be questioned and is unequivocal in a system that condones preferential treatment among their own, (using a simple traffic roadside stop, as just one {at the time the off-duty officer hands the on-duty his driver's licence with his badge clearly visible} example) then you think with a level of naivety better suiting of a preteen.

Right. Especially when favourtism and preferential treatment happens among their own. And, how often do we hear a broadcast get wrapped up with the forces best PR guy saying: "We don't expect to find any wrong doings on the part of the officers involved with this case".

Better system? For starters, don't allow preferential treatment and favourtism on the roadside.
Or when the wife of an alcoholic cop (who has let the stress of his drinking and job, affect his rational state and had been abusing her) calls the police, don't be sweeping her concerns and complaint under the rug just to protect one of their own. You want others? I have plenty. Anyone who has been merely awake in society for 20 years or more has no shortage of examples for potential improvement.

Plus....I never buy the excuse that it may be worse elsewhere in the world. We are in this country, and employ the police forces in this country, bound under this country's laws.

Randomly? That's as doable as your claim it never happens.
They are not the saints you would attempt to have us believe here.

I have personally been the victim of mistaken-identity (just as one example) and became a victim of their 'never screwing up.'

And if you think that the odd driver doesn't get the wrath of a cop at the end of a day when he had a higher than everage number of true ******** previously, then see again my naivety comment above.

Agreed, the system is far from perfect. I don't think any are. But can you come up with a realistic better one?

Preferential treatment??? It's called discretion. So are you saying a cop should give no breaks at all to anyone??? I bet the percentage of civillians that are given discretion is similar to that of police officers. There are lots of cops out there who give other cops tickets. And there are lots and lots of people who receive discretion in criminal matters as well. Yet, I think the days of the "blue wall" protecting officers in criminal matters are long gone.

Have you ever been given a break by a cop?? How bout anyone else posting here??

Please show me where a PR guy has said "we don't expect to find any wrong doings". I have never heard that....seeing that SIU basically stifles the police media people. But if it happens so "often" as you say, I'm sure you can show me a example or two.

I don't believe I ever made any comparison to "the world". I think my comparison was across the country, as in province to province. Any idea of what the other provinces do??

FYI, there is a new complaint system in Ontario for complaints. I suggest you look it up. It's going to put to rest many of the things you speak of, many of which I think are already "outdated".

Having said all of this, you put some great thought into your post.

 

[Smokeandapancake]

Yes it is, even if you did decide to not address any of my points above.

I'll just write it off as a cop-out I guess :shrug:

You had some great points....educated even. Please see above post.

 

[Smokeandapancake]

As if those wouldn't be serious enough allegations even in light of you choosing to go with the 'putting words in other's mouths' bandwagon..

Not going to try to reason with irrationality here...sorry it didn't work out for you.

Any women who gets a ticket, talks to a cop on duty, goes out with a cop off duty, is a bitter ex, in a custody battle, pee'd off for any reason, can cause a SIU investigation to occur.

Heck you can even run a motorbike into a parked police car with no one in it and cause a SIU investigation to occur.

 

[thumpit]

Agreed, the system is far from perfect. I don't think any are. But can you come up with a realistic better one?

Preferential treatment??? It's called discretion. So are you saying a cop should give no breaks at all to anyone??? I bet the percentage of civillians that are given discretion is similar to that of police officers. There are lots of cops out there who give other cops tickets. And there are lots and lots of people who receive discretion in criminal matters as well. Yet, I think the days of the "blue wall" protecting officers in criminal matters are long gone.

Have you ever been given a break by a cop?? How bout anyone else posting here??

Please show me where a PR guy has said "we don't expect to find any wrong doings". I have never heard that....seeing that SIU basically stifles the police media people. But if it happens so "often" as you say, I'm sure you can show me a example or two.

I don't believe I ever made any comparison to "the world". I think my comparison was across the country, as in province to province. Any idea of what the other provinces do??

FYI, there is a new complaint system in Ontario for complaints. I suggest you look it up. It's going to put to rest many of the things you speak of, many of which I think are already "outdated".

Having said all of this, you put some great thought into your post.

Ok, thanks for responding. Although having read a number of your posts, I see there isn't a lot of meeting of the minds that can likely happen here.

When I referred to preferential treatment, I thought I made it pretty obvious I was referring to cops with each other. I even said as much when I used the phrase "looking out for their own".

"Discretion" is one of those do-all be-all words. I put it on the same shelf as as words like 'sometimes', 'occasionally', 'maybe' and 'perhaps'. The grey area potential stretches to the horizon and beyond.

"I bet the percentage of civillians that are given discretion is similar to that of police officers."

ya...if they're chicks..

"Yet, I think the days of the "blue wall" protecting officers in criminal matters are long gone."

Right, and you/we, can thank digital video, in part, and how everybody has digital eyes essentially in the back of their head nowadays. What happened (keeps happening?) in BC with the RCMP improper tazering death is a prime example of not being able to deny what is so clearly evident on the tape.

Has a cop ever given me a break? Yes, but not much of one when compared to the times I got crapped on and it wasn't even me they were after. Wrong place at the wrong time. But the scales of 'breaks' are so overwhelmingly lop-sided, only a cop with the preferential treatment they experience among themselves (and you know they do), uses that one to try to help make his point.

"there is a new complaint system in Ontario for complaints."

Good, however the system will have to earn my trust first. And that takes time. Do I have much faith that if I made a complaint under the (to-be) new rules, it wouldn't backfire on me before the week was out? Nope.
Perhaps if these new complaint avenues had been put into place (again, before video had put their backs against the wall) years ago, I could trust more willingly today.

 

[Smokeandapancake]

Ok, thanks for responding. Although having read a number of your posts, I see there isn't a lot of meeting of the minds that can likely happen here.

When I referred to preferential treatment, I thought I made it pretty obvious I was referring to cops with each other. I even said as much when I used the phrase "looking out for their own".

"Discretion" is one of those do-all be-all words. I put it on the same shelf as as words like 'sometimes', 'occasionally', 'maybe' and 'perhaps'. The grey area potential stretches to the horizon and beyond.

"I bet the percentage of civillians that are given discretion is similar to that of police officers."

ya...if they're chicks..

"Yet, I think the days of the "blue wall" protecting officers in criminal matters are long gone."

Right, and you/we, can thank digital video, in part, and how everybody has digital eyes essentially in the back of their head nowadays. What happened (keeps happening?) in BC with the RCMP improper tazering death is a prime example of not being able to deny what is so clearly evident on the tape.

Has a cop ever given me a break? Yes, but not much of one when compared to the times I got crapped on and it wasn't even me they were after. Wrong place at the wrong time. But the scales of 'breaks' are so overwhelmingly lop-sided, only a cop with the preferential treatment they experience among themselves (and you know they do), uses that one to try to help make his point.

"there is a new complaint system in Ontario for complaints."

Good, however the system will have to earn my trust first. And that takes time. Do I have much faith that if I made a complaint under the (to-be) new rules, it wouldn't backfire on me before the week was out? Nope.
Perhaps if these new complaint avenues had been put into place (again, before video had put their backs against the wall) years ago, I could trust more willingly today.

Fair enough....

 

[DS2]

I have it from a very credible source that the Police know who they are looking for. They know make model and owner of bike. They also linked him to her through investigating her electronic devices.

Just a matter of time until they located him.

That is all I am going to disclose regarding this matter, so don't ask me questions, they will go unanswered!

Who is your source?

What is the make/model of the bike in question?

Who is the owner?

When will he be arrested?

 

[01cbr]

Who is your source?

What is the make/model of the bike in question?

Who is the owner?

When will he be arrested?

None of your business apparently.

 

[DJM]

Never thought about that. Text messages/calls about going for a ride. All on her cellphone and/or email. I really hope they can make these charges stick to this POS.

 

[Smokeandapancake]

Never thought about that. Text messages/calls about going for a ride. All on her cellphone and/or email. I really hope they can make these charges stick to this POS.

Facebook, dating sites, etc etc....

 

[mgbmike]

Well, somehow I've worked myself through most of the posts on this, and the topic seems to have hit a fork in the road.

As for the faith in the police system, and the SIU, it would seem to me, as an outsider, to be a good checks and balances system. As the optimist that I am, I feel there are far more 'good' cops, than 'bad' cops, just like there are far more 'good' citizens than 'bad' citizens. In a previous time of my life, as a paramedic, I've worked hand in hand in many situations with cops, as I have with doctors. Guess what, there are cops that I didn't respect, as there were doctors that I didn't respect, but far more of both that I did respect.

Most police departments have an internal affairs department, of some sort or another, that takes on this role. By making this a provincial function, the possibility has been reduced to have a dishonest system.

Again, I'm speaking as an outsider, I no longer am a paramedic, and have no affiliation with any police force. I do know that I was pulled over a few weeks ago, on my bike for speeding. Behaving politely to the OPP officer, responding in a civil manner to his questions resulted in a reduced ticket, which frankly I was happy about. I was caught breaking the law, as soon as the lights went on I stopped, in a safe place for the office to approach me, and complied with his requests.

I've been pulled over a few times in my life, and responded to the office in the same manner each time. I was always shown respect, and usually had the ticket reduced, due to my behaviour. I don't carry a police card to get that treatment, rather my attitude resulted in a better outcome.

By the way, every time, as the office is walking back to his car, I say the same thing; 'Thank you, and please be safe'. They've got a tough job.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

And it would take a very twisted personality to live with that ordeal on your plate your whole life.

Some people can do it, they're psychopaths, same kids that drowned puppies for fun when they were children. I remember reading an article about how many psychopaths may live undetected because while they feel no remorse they have learned to act to fit in with society better. I don't know what percentage of society are psychopaths, I doubt we could really tell with out brain scanning everyone.

There is a lot of pressure on the police to find this rider who bailed on the passenger. Hopefully they get the right guy and not some one who is convenient (Guy Paul Morin comes to mind). At this point I don't see the possibility of a fair trial so all we can hope for is they have the right guy because he's already convicted.

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