What did you do to your Race/Track Bike today - 2014 | Page 9 | GTAMotorcycle.com

What did you do to your Race/Track Bike today - 2014

I know Sherrard is very well respected and so I am going to get flamed for this, but I am actually a little bit skeptical about being able to provide a great setup without actually getting the bike on track and seeing how it works. Spring rates and sag yes, you pretty much set that stuff once for your weight and forget it...but even those might change a bit if you are into a track with lots of hard braking, for example. But damping settings are pretty hard to eyeball based on a bounce test, and normally you would have to have some kind of feedback about, for example, traction under acceleration out of a corner, and then experiment with different settings, to get things really dialed in.

I am just saying that I feel like the hard part of suspension setup pretty much has to happen at the track, not in the shop. The "diagnostic key" type information on damping settings is always based on how the bike is actually handling.

For me the really spooky stuff is the sort of track tuning Dave Moss does, where he reads tire wear patterns and is able to make damping adjustments based on that. All suspension tuning is as much art as science, but that stuff approaches voodoo as far as I can tell :). I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that I am sure I could never do it.
 
YellowDuck said:
I know Sherrard is very well respected and so I am going to get flamed for this, but I am actually a little bit skeptical about being able to provide a great setup without actually getting the bike on track and seeing how it works. ..... But damping settings are pretty hard to eyeball based on a bounce test......
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Not to flame - but what do you do professionally?
In my field, somebody comes to me with a question that requires a quick eyeball, I can usually give an answer quite quickly and have it be within 5-10% variance off the top of my head.

I'm sure it's the same for you - a coworker or whatever comes to you to ask for something you're very good at, and you'll be able to reply quickly as well. Guessing it's the same for Mr. Sherrard. He's been doing it for so long, that he has a definitive "knack" at it - something that only comes with experience.

You mention that suspension tuning seems like voodoo - it does to me too, simply because I haven't been around it or been even attempting it for long enough. If your standard of living was based around something that you're an expert in, it makes it easy. If you tried to run a business with no knowledge of the field except for the basic rudiments (i.e. turn this screw right and it gets harder, turn left and it gets softer) you'll fail miserably.

Suspension stuff is a skill. Much like any other job that requires extreme attention to detail - even more so when a poor set up can lead to destroying tires in a day, crashes and potential injury.
 
I had John do a full rework (springs and valving) of the suspension on my bike that came with a full cartridge kit and rear shock. The bike was NOT perfect after nor did I expect it to be however, there was no spring changes made or valving issues. My first outing I had a bit of tire wear so I called John and he told me what clickers to change, fixed. Then I was having an issue with sharp edge bumps on certain corners, called John again. That's how things went for 3 or 4 track days untill it was pretty much perfect, then I got faster, then I called John, then I got faster, then I called John.

Your not just paying for the knowledge of the suspension tuner who has setup countless bikes at all the tracks we have in Canada but for their support after the fact. As long as you can tell them what's going on, they can tell you what to adjust to make it better. Eventually you have an idea of what to adjust by yourself but if you have doubts you can always call and get confirmation.

The inital setup is to get you in the ballpark, it's up to you to give the feedback to get it dialed because what works for you won't work for me.
 
If JS is like me he takes a lot of notes when he works on bikes and riders at different tracks.
I am not a JS customer but I can say that there is no doubt that a good tuner with track knowledge, experience and notes can set a bike up 'in the ballpark' without even going to the track.

For example with my experience and notes I can pretty much turn a wheel anywhere with a bike that is 98% perfect, and I have been on many different brands and models. It's just stuff you pick up after years of doing it and trying different things.

Besides, the settings; clickers, turns, geometry, really should not change very much from track to track as at most tracks (except mosport) there are just as many fast turns as slow ones and the bike has to work just as well in each of them.

So, take a lot of notes when you play around with the stuff and it will reward you in the future.
 
dricked said:
I had John do a full rework (springs and valving) of the suspension on my bike that came with a full cartridge kit and rear shock. The bike was NOT perfect after nor did I expect it to be however, there was no spring changes made or valving issues. My first outing I had a bit of tire wear so I called John and he told me what clickers to change, fixed. Then I was having an issue with sharp edge bumps on certain corners, called John again. That's how things went for 3 or 4 track days untill it was pretty much perfect, then I got faster, then I called John, then I got faster, then I called John.
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Interesting. That sounds pretty much exactly like I would expect the test / feedback / adjust process to go...except I am surprised to learn that it could be done effectively over the phone like that. Very impressive.
 
Give them the right information and the only difference is the tool is in your hand instead of theirs.
 
Isn't suspension guess & test?
Make some adjustments, go for a ride. Not ok? Adjust again, repeat as necessary
 
RockerGuy said:
Isn't suspension guess & test?
Make some adjustments, go for a ride. Not ok? Adjust again, repeat as necessary
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That's what I thought. I was also told that changing preload, compression and rebound damping all at once is the quickest way to find the best setup. ;)

On the weekend I rearranged bikes in the garage. So what did I do to my track bike? I moved it. It's against the wall now instead of centre stage, now that the shock is back in and it has both wheels on again.
 
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Yay I have brakes again
 
Missing the fancy clear tubing running to your reservoir.

Losing posing points with that black hose lol.
 
holy ****, i should learn to read all posts to the end before posting a reply..
 
RockerGuy said:
Isn't suspension guess & test?
Make some adjustments, go for a ride. Not ok? Adjust again, repeat as necessary
Click to expand...

The most important stuff that has to do with the geometry and weight distribution of the bike - ride height, swingarm down-angle, spring rates, rider-aboard sag - you can come very close to a decent baseline setup in the shop. If the person doing the setup has dealt with that particular model before, it can come even closer. With a baseline set up, the rider has to go ride and observe what the bike is doing, and it's the tuner's job to make changes in the correct direction to address whatever the situation is. Things can change as the rider gets faster.

The clickers (damping adjustments) are a small part of it. In most cases they only adjust the low-speed damping; the higher-speed damping is established by various valves, springs, shims, etc deep inside the fork or shock, and that can only be changed by disassembly, so you had better know what effect they have.

First geometry, then spring rates, then suspension travel, then damping.

I've seen riders (and tuners) try to cover up the real problem (wrong spring rates) by playing with damping, oil level, etc. The problem won't go away until you fix the real problem (by changing the springs). I've seen riders (and tuners) try to cover up the real problem (wrong geometry - wrong swingarm down-angle a.k.a. wrong swingarm pivot height) by playing with other stuff. It doesn't work.

And by NO means do I claim to be one to nail the perfect setup straight out of the box nor always pin down exactly what the problem is when something is wrong. On my race bike (that I've owned for 17 years but on which I changed wheel and tire sizes last year), I'm on take 3 of "change rear spring rate". Track-day pace, practice pace, no issue. Race pace, the carousel at Grand Bend destroys the rear tire and the shock-travel-indicating O-ring on the shock is indicating that I've used all the travel. Latest spring rate hasn't been validated in dry-weather conditions yet ...
 
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