VW deisel?? wtf...

Media reports of of Europe several manufactures emissions are 10x worse in real world driving than test environment. The only difference is, they didn't have a cheat for the test.

Kinda like fuel mileage estimates. Test environment xyz, but drive off the lot and get something different.

Is is a scandal or just the way things are?
 
That's the way things are .... in Europe all cars pollute many times more than set limit (I imagine rest of the world is not dramatically different). Diesel or gasoline engine, doesn't matter ..... because the Brussels brigade called for unrealistic limits. So, it essentially doesn't matter whether a defeat device/code was triggered or not, because they really didn't test any of the current cars in relevant conditions. Now they all hurry and do and pretend they had no clue about this and make VW to pay, collectively for everyone else.

The general public in Europe hates this witch hunt on their cars or favorite brands .... will it matter? Probably not, because it's out of touch Brussels running the show not people anymore.

This will potentially hurt two countries the most ... Czech Republic and Hungary ... because they produce a lot of engines and car parts related to VW sales in EU. It will have drastic consequences for their economies .... for what?? To fix something which was set unrealistically low and intentionally with loopholes in the regulation in the first place and ignored for years by everyone involved??

Nuts .....
 
Here's one POV on VW's potential defense:

By Paul Murphy




First, let me say that I drive a Volvo XC70 - a 300 HP, 5000 pound, gas guzzler that gets about 9,000 miles per ticket -- and have never owned, or wanted, either a Volkswagen or an Audi.

It's unfair to hold today's Volkswagen AG accountable for the sins of its founders, but I have never understood how leftist anti-war protestors and peaceniks could commute to their riots in cars and vans whose design Ferdinand Porsche largely stole from Tata at Hitler's orders -- but then, I don't understand how adoring posters of mass murderers like Mao and Che Guevara with peace symbols and flowers makes sense either.

The bottom line on both observations, however, is that I don't like VW's cars, don't like the company, and have no friends who bought that company's products new - but none of this means that I can't see the upside of what VW is said to have done.

Specifically, it is possible to see their "defeat device" (basically a piece of software that detunes diesel engines during testing, but lets them run hot and clean in actual customer use) as an inspired bit of civil disobedience.

So, with that in mind, here's how Volkswagen could use the difference between the "de facto" real world application of the rule and the "de jure" world of law to defend themselves.

The legal defense is straightforward: the law generally requires these engines to pass EPA specified tests at the time of testing -- and they do. This is, in most jurisdictions, simple, black letter law: there is literally no legal substance to the charge against them.

The reality based defense, however, would be that the rule is known to be both unrealistic in economic and technical terms, and environmentally counterproductive. Basically VW would defend itself by attacking the rule maker and pushing the idea that the whole is thing is driven by the leftist agenda, not environmental concern.

There are two reasons this works:

1. The costs of the rule are easy to quantify, but the deaths due to NOx and particulate matter cited to justify it exist only as a computational artifact -- in reality not a single death, or even major illness, can be directly attributed to NOx or particulates emitted from a VW, or any other diesel, in normal outdoor use.

Some useful measures of the environmental impact that would have been produced had the rule been followed are, furthermore, both easy to estimate and easy to defend as real.

To illustrate I'll make up some ballpark numbers: suppose the net effect of the rule if applied would be to decrease the mileage your (lying) neighbor gets on his diesel Volkswagen from a claimed 68.75 MPG to a real 55 MPG -- in part because the engine burns fuel less efficiently and in in part because it has to run at a higher RPM to produce comparable power. Now assume 400,000 VW diesels averaging 20,000 miles a year over eight years, and you get the guess that the EPA wanted to force VW customers to buy and burn an additional 230 million gallons of fuel over the period. Figure an average $3 and 23 pounds of exhaust per gallon, and this rule shows as a $698 million dollar differential tax burden on VW owners -- and 5.3 billion pound assault on the environment.

2. This issue has a long history at both the EPA and VW with both sides well aware of each other's positions and actions since at least 1998. As a result VW can present the current blow-up as a politically motivated EPA action breaking a longstanding unspoken agreement to ignore a stupid rule known to be both environmentally and economically counterproductive.

Notice, in this context, that this type of rule doesn't originate with the Republican initiated and passed Clean Air Act, it originates with Carter's EPA; the key precedents were established (largely through real and threatened judicial activism) during the Clinton administration; and that VW's use of today's "defeat device" was enabled by Clinton-era requirements with respect to on-board automotive diagnostics and triggered by the fleet fuel efficiency requirements imposed by the Obamacon in 2009.

So, what's Volkswagen's defense? It met the letter of a law imposed by bureaucrats acting in bad faith on bad science; put its customers first; reduced environmental risks and/or exposure for all Americans; and is now taking that act of civil disobedience into the legal and political arenas in support of its customers, its shareholders, and the environment.

I don't thinking shouting "Sieg Heil VW!" wholly appropriate, but if they fight, no jury containing at least one articulate conservative is going to convict them -- and smarter customers will probably express their approval of the company's actions where it counts: at the dealerships.
 
I guess the emission standards would be unrealistic if none of the other manufacturers could meet them......we shall see if they had to resort to cheating also.
 
The last line in the paul murphy article above speaks to smarter customers hanging with VW . VW sales figures for the last month just came out. There are no smarter customers of which he speaks. Just a customer group that feels they have been lied to for about 7 yrs.
 
I guess the emission standards would be unrealistic if none of the other manufacturers could meet them......we shall see if they had to resort to cheating also.

You mean like Ford, Chev or Honda?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-emissions-almost-as-old-as-pollution-tests

Will see who else the EPA "sniffs" out:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...e-to-other-car-models-report/article26630001/

There are rumors floating around that BMW diesels might be a little naughty as well but we'll see......
 
The last line in the paul murphy article above speaks to smarter customers hanging with VW . VW sales figures for the last month just came out. There are no smarter customers of which he speaks. Just a customer group that feels they have been lied to for about 7 yrs.

Not surprising that sales would be down if you have a stop order on selling models which represent 20% of your model lineup..... ;)

http://business.financialpost.com/n...-toll-the-last-10-days-were-pretty-disastrous

As such, if there are any "smarter customers" we'd have to wait until the gag order is lifted to see what they will do no? ;)
 
The manufacturers have always gamed the system. The test cycles are precisely defined and well known so they optimize their cars' performance around these scenarios. They can be pretty good at it but it's not at all cheating. So I'm sure there will be various levels of discrepancy found between test results and real world results but some will be from innocent 'pushing the boundaries' of the rules while some will be outright cheating.

The question I have is, with software being so inscrutable these days how will the EPA know who are the cheats and who aren't?
 
So are people with the affected VW going to get brand new ones? Full buyback?

What's a realistic scenario here for VW to 'right' this wrong?
 
So are people with the affected VW going to get brand new ones? Full buyback?

What's a realistic scenario here for VW to 'right' this wrong?

If I was a TDI owner I would think making it emissions compliant and a calculated monetary reward for the reduced fuel economy would be sufficient.
 
So are people with the affected VW going to get brand new ones? Full buyback?

What's a realistic scenario here for VW to 'right' this wrong?

I think it depends on the age and mileage of every owner's vehicle involved ..... I am not a crazy person who would refuse to drive the vehicle, nor am I expecting any compensation. I bought the vehicle for it's driving abilities, torque and value over all. Not because I thought I am buying a "clean" diesel .... if you get my drift.

There's no chance I will ever bring the car voluntarily to a dealer for a "check-up" .... unless everyone else plans to do that with their vehicles ... LOL

So, I have close to 120K on it in about 6 years .... what do you think I will do?
 
Just FYI ... how compliant are other vehicles in Europe ... not in english, but self-explanatory. This is how "good" this is across the board ....


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VW is still working out the bugs on the update. Should be ready to ship to dealers in a few weeks.


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So are people with the affected VW going to get brand new ones? Full buyback?

What's a realistic scenario here for VW to 'right' this wrong?

There is a news release from VW Canada that reads more like a marketing campaign to trade in their TDI and receive a $2000 discount on a new vehicle. What they don't tell you is what you'll get for a trade in. So, just like any dealer, they will tell you your current vehicle is worthless but, they will help you unload it and give you a special discount for the new purchase or special financing rate or what ever.

It's just an insult to injury really.

But, I'm sure there are some current owners looking to get rid of their TDI because they feel ashamed or what ever.

After 60k, mine drives just as good as they day I brought it home. No issues. I really hope they just let the cars be and just pay a fine, apologize and call it a day.
 
There is a news release from VW Canada that reads more like a marketing campaign to trade in their TDI and receive a $2000 discount on a new vehicle. What they don't tell you is what you'll get for a trade in. So, just like any dealer, they will tell you your current vehicle is worthless but, they will help you unload it and give you a special discount for the new purchase or special financing rate or what ever.

It's just an insult to injury really.

But, I'm sure there are some current owners looking to get rid of their TDI because they feel ashamed or what ever.

After 60k, mine drives just as good as they day I brought it home. No issues. I really hope they just let the cars be and just pay a fine, apologize and call it a day.

Wasn't there a clause in the Clean Air system that if you paid for a few hundred dollars of work you automatically got a pass? It doesn't do squat for the environment but what are the alternatives?
 
Wasn't there a clause in the Clean Air system that if you paid for a few hundred dollars of work you automatically got a pass? It doesn't do squat for the environment but what are the alternatives?

I think once the vehicle is up for a drive clean test, you can have one conditional pass but, after that it's the scrap yard.

Thing is, they just plug in the vehicle now and don't even run it. Assuming there isn't any issues to trip a code or whatever, a VW TDI will pass just like any other vehicle.

So if VW puts out a recall for a update to the ECM tune and you ignore it, it still should pass the drive clean.
 
What's a realistic scenario here for VW to 'right' this wrong?

th


Nakkers, i'd bet a dollar at least one of your tail lights doesn't work right. :p
 
No, you can keep getting conditional passes, you just cant sell it with conditional pass to someone else

I think once the vehicle is up for a drive clean test, you can have one conditional pass but, after that it's the scrap yard.

Thing is, they just plug in the vehicle now and don't even run it. Assuming there isn't any issues to trip a code or whatever, a VW TDI will pass just like any other vehicle.

So if VW puts out a recall for a update to the ECM tune and you ignore it, it still should pass the drive clean.
 

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