VW deisel?? wtf...

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FiReSTaRT said:
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The electrical and electronic gremlins made me abandon the Reich and sell out to the Emperor of Japan :cool:
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+1...

Our Jetta was horrible for electrical gremlins. Car was wonderful to drive and the interior of that generation was really nicely detailed with quality materials and it held up well. The electronics though... Wowsa... Always something which led to an unintended and surprise mini vacation at the side of the road followed by a tow and a repair bill. Finally enough was enough and me moved on and have not bought a VW since. Honda, Toyota, and Chevy have graced our driveway and garage since.

Interestingly enough I have experienced the ignition issues with my HHR which required the massive GM recall. I grew up on malaise era cars and know what it is like to have a car stall on you and you lose your power steering, power brakes etc. My HHR would stall every time I went over the railways tracks on the north end of the Hanlon Expressway in Guelph. Just put the clutch in and restart the engine and continue on. Since the recall was done the car has been flawless. Of note is that beyond the issues associated with the recall this HHR has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.
 
Kri$han said:
Ohhh I can't say for 2014 models, my bike's a 2004; and around that time almost no bikes had a catalytic converter
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Some do. 84 US spec Rz 350s had them.

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What about the resale value of the TDI now?

Also for people saying they will not do the fix, good luck with that when "they" update the Drive Clean computers and your car doesn't pass anymore and you can't renew your plates.
 
I'm predicting resale of VW diesel will take a serious hit, once the "real" computer starts to work the mileage and hp will be not be there. The value equation for diesel in vw will go out the window.
I'm thinking all vw models will be on sale shortly , they have an ugly public image this morning
 
crankcall said:
I'm predicting resale of VW diesel will take a serious hit, once the "real" computer starts to work the mileage and hp will be not be there. The value equation for diesel in vw will go out the window.
I'm thinking all vw models will be on sale shortly , they have an ugly public image this morning
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Considering every TDI model is sitting, not available for sale, they are paper weights now.

They haven't come up with a "fix" in over a year since the EPA began investigating. I wonder if they tried to "fix" the issue when they began doing it in 2009? They just assumed the work around will do and kept pumping them out.

To me, I think they can't make them operate as the intended spec which essentially makes them useless.

VW makes several changes to their machines over a given model year. This? They haven't made right since the beginning.

I'm just wondering about what they are going to do with those driving around now? Are they scrap?
 
mimico_polak said:
I'm sure it's a great car, however would you make the same purchase knowing that the car was way more polluting than originally thought?

People will continue driving them because frankly...the diesel saves them money at the pumps, and the pollution is everyone else's problem.

There's some of course that bought it for the huge fuel savings (although not sure it's worth the added $ for diesel motor) but they may take up issue and start a class action against VW as well.
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I would but I also ride a 2 stroke on the street and my other car is exempt from emissions testing and smells like unburnt fuel. The last diesel I bought was a converted Suzuki Samurai with no catalytic converter that spewed smoke whenever you stepped on the gas. The emissions test for older diesels is just visual and they can pass with all the emissions equipment removed.
 
nfq said:
EPA is US regulations right?
How does this affect Canadian cars?
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Just a few cars in Canada. A bigger problem for VW, how will this affect the cars in the UK and the European Union?
There are so many of these cars over there (and I mean, the fines will be also in the billions).
 
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nakkers said:
Considering every TDI model is sitting, not available for sale, they are paper weights now.

They haven't come up with a "fix" in over a year since the EPA began investigating. I wonder if they tried to "fix" the issue when they began doing it in 2009? They just assumed the work around will do and kept pumping them out.

To me, I think they can't make them operate as the intended spec which essentially makes them useless.

VW makes several changes to their machines over a given model year. This? They haven't made right since the beginning.

I'm just wondering about what they are going to do with those driving around now? Are they scrap?
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This is the billion dollar problem for VW. I do not think there is a practical way to fix 11 million cars. It is going to cost them billions to deal with this issue. Owners (at least in the USA and Canada) may be eventually caught in a bad situation (example, must fix the car at the next DriveClean inspection, then what could the owner do?).

The only way to fix the emission problems is to reduce the fuel efficiency of the car. Period! You cannot have both! (VW has been trying, and could not do it).

Either the car offers great mileage, and pollutes like a factory, or the car is clean, and mileage will be horrible (how horrible? It is anyone guess).

The cars may not be scrap yet, but I would not risk it. If I had one, I would go back to VW and ask them to buy it back.
 
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Splash said:
What about the resale value of the TDI now?

Also for people saying they will not do the fix, good luck with that when "they" update the Drive Clean computers and your car doesn't pass anymore and you can't renew your plates.
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The obd test? Lol you can pass it completely catless. Most other readiness sensors can be cheated or eliminated.
 
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nakkers said:
I'm just wondering about what they are going to do with those driving around now? Are they scrap?
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My money is on them paying a fine for each vehicle (~1000) and doing very little to fix the problem (eg. emissions controls stay on at idle, but continue with current operation above idle). It they reduce mileage/hp/dpf life significantly the class action suit will eclipse the fine.

Has anyone actually seen a technical discussion of what happens? BrianP? They say emissions controls are turned off, but what does that really mean? No EGR? AFAIK their isn't plumbing to bypass the DPF.
 
daught said:
The obd test? Lol you can pass it completely catless. Most other readiness sensors can be cheated or eliminated.
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I haven't paid attention, does the driveclean test read a firmware version or something similar? If it does, the driveclean pass may require a firmware number higher than that which implemented the fix. Again, this may not be hard with a chip to feed the info to the driveclean computer.
 
High NOx numbers are a byproduct of lean combustion. Anyone temember the lean burn civic vx of mid 90s? Incredible mpgs but high NOx numbers killed it.

Problem with diesels is that they are alway lean burning at everything but WOT. Hence Urea injection.
 
GreyGhost said:
My money is on them paying a fine for each vehicle (~1000) and doing very little to fix the problem (eg. emissions controls stay on at idle, but continue with current operation above idle). It they reduce mileage/hp/dpf life significantly the class action suit will eclipse the fine.

Has anyone actually seen a technical discussion of what happens? BrianP? They say emissions controls are turned off, but what does that really mean? No EGR? AFAIK their isn't plumbing to bypass the DPF.
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From various sources on the web:

"Since 2009, we now know, Volkswagen had been inserting intricate code in its vehicle software that tracked steering and pedal movements. When those movements suggested that the car was being tested for nitrogen-oxide emissions in a lab, the car automatically turned its pollution controls on. The rest of the time, the pollution controls switched off."

also a good summation:

So quick "diesel engine 101" for those with some questions
Diesel engines are always in a state of "rich" (more fuel then air) or "lean" (more air then fuel).
Rich conditions produce higher soot content and lean creates higher NOX
NOX is harmful to ozone. Soot is harmful to your lungs.
To counter these effects modern TDI engines have diesel particulate filters (DPF) to trap soot and either NOX traps or Diesel exhaust fluid (ad-blue) to reduce NOX emissions.
DPF's trap soot until a certain amount is detected and then will burn it off turning it to ash. This is achieved by injecting diesel into the cylinder post-combustion - it then ignites in the DPF acting like a flame thrower turning the soot to ash and cleaning the DPF (regeneration) This also results in higher fuel consumption which is why North Americans diesels have about equal fuel consumption to gas engines
NOX traps operate in a similar fashion but require much less heat to burn off the NOX
NOX traps are now being replaced by injecting Ad-blue into the exhaust system. Ad-blue is a mixture of urea (yes, pee) and water (approx 68% water) when it injected into the exhaust it converts to ammonia and results in a NOX reduction. (Fun fact, Ad-blue fluid can be used as an ammonia fertiliser to get nice green grass)
So all this is happening very fast and being monitored by many many sensors and being helped by things like Exhaust gas recirculation, catalysts and variable engine timing all trying to reduce emissions to meet California emissions standards (one of if not the most stringent emissions standards - its the reason vw did not sell diesels in North America for 2ish years around 2007-8, they hadn't produced a system capable of meeting the standard)
Not sure what will come of all this, but I'm not really worried for Volkswagen AG.
TL;DR - suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Catch it, Pee on it, run it under a flame thrower and have computers watching all of it.
 
nfq said:
From various sources on the web:

"Since 2009, we now know, Volkswagen had been inserting intricate code in its vehicle software that tracked steering and pedal movements. When those movements suggested that the car was being tested for nitrogen-oxide emissions in a lab, the car automatically turned its pollution controls on. The rest of the time, the pollution controls switched off."

also a good summation:

So quick "diesel engine 101" for those with some questions
Diesel engines are always in a state of "rich" (more fuel then air) or "lean" (more air then fuel).
Rich conditions produce higher soot content and lean creates higher NOX
NOX is harmful to ozone. Soot is harmful to your lungs.
To counter these effects modern TDI engines have diesel particulate filters (DPF) to trap soot and either NOX traps or Diesel exhaust fluid (ad-blue) to reduce NOX emissions.
DPF's trap soot until a certain amount is detected and then will burn it off turning it to ash. This is achieved by injecting diesel into the cylinder post-combustion - it then ignites in the DPF acting like a flame thrower turning the soot to ash and cleaning the DPF (regeneration) This also results in higher fuel consumption which is why North Americans diesels have about equal fuel consumption to gas engines
NOX traps operate in a similar fashion but require much less heat to burn off the NOX
NOX traps are now being replaced by injecting Ad-blue into the exhaust system. Ad-blue is a mixture of urea (yes, pee) and water (approx 68% water) when it injected into the exhaust it converts to ammonia and results in a NOX reduction. (Fun fact, Ad-blue fluid can be used as an ammonia fertiliser to get nice green grass)
So all this is happening very fast and being monitored by many many sensors and being helped by things like Exhaust gas recirculation, catalysts and variable engine timing all trying to reduce emissions to meet California emissions standards (one of if not the most stringent emissions standards - its the reason vw did not sell diesels in North America for 2ish years around 2007-8, they hadn't produced a system capable of meeting the standard)
Not sure what will come of all this, but I'm not really worried for Volkswagen AG.
TL;DR - suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Catch it, Pee on it, run it under a flame thrower and have computers watching all of it.
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That's a really good explaination! The newer TDIs (2015 onwards) have AD Blue, the ones from 2009-2014 don't, and I suspect those will be the one's affected.
 
Since when do TDIs, or any diesel for that matter, get the same fuel economy as gas engines? Why would anyone buy one if that is true?
 
unL33T said:
Since when do TDIs, or any diesel for that matter, get the same fuel economy as gas engines? Why would anyone buy one if that is true?
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Diesel used to be quite cheaper than gasoline a while back. That alone was savings enough.
 
nfq said:
Diesel used to be quite cheaper than gasoline a while back. That alone was savings enough.
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Hasn't been for like 5 years or more though.
 
nfq said:
From various sources on the web:

" When those movements suggested that the car was being tested for nitrogen-oxide emissions in a lab, the car automatically turned its pollution controls on. The rest of the time, the pollution controls switched off."
To counter these effects modern TDI engines have diesel particulate filters (DPF) to trap soot and either NOX traps or Diesel exhaust fluid (ad-blue) to reduce NOX emissions.
So all this is happening very fast and being monitored by many many sensors and being helped by things like Exhaust gas recirculation, catalysts and variable engine timing all trying to reduce emissions to meet California emissions standards
Click to expand...


This is what I am looking on clarification on. Everything talks about "pollution controls" being on or off. What does that mean in reality in a TDI? There is a NOX trap that is bypassed (I don't think this is possible as the exhaust is a single stream, but it may skip regeneration), EGR is disabled, the catalyst is allowed to cool, engine timing is altered etc?
 
GreyGhost said:
This is what I am looking on clarification on. Everything talks about "pollution controls" being on or off. What does that mean in reality in a TDI? There is a NOX trap that is bypassed (I don't think this is possible as the exhaust is a single stream, but it may skip regeneration), EGR is disabled, the catalyst is allowed to cool, engine timing is altered etc?
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I haven't been able to find a reliable source that has details of how they bypassed it to fool the testing. Guess we'll wait until it's released or someone leaks it.
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