Sub 1:20 TMP dudes feeling bored?

[Corsara]

Can definitely use some feedback from the speed demons at TMP if they really have nothing better to do and feel like wasting a few mins. Won't be a waste if I become better and you happen to be on the track with me ==> safer for you!

Where am I losing the seconds, and where am I begging for trouble?

Two laps, 1:24.421 and 1:24.803 as measured by GPS at turn 10 for Start / Finish. Brand new Dunlop Q3 street tires.

[video=youtube;g5aNr_cRXmU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5aNr_cRXmU[/video]

PS. This thread is not useless (to me).

 

[Corsara]

Ok, a friend on here who's helped me more than once before sent me an enormous amount of tips and advice, quite a lot to keep me busy to assimilate and put into practice. So, please skip over this thread, I got more than I could wish for. Cheers!

 

[awyala]

I also need help breaking the 120 duck. I'm gonna mooch some tips off this thread (also not useless to me!).

 

[awyala]

Ok, a friend on here who's helped me more than once before sent me an enormous amount of tips and advice, quite a lot to keep me busy to assimilate and put into practice. So, please skip over this thread, I got more than I could wish for. Cheers!

Care to flip it over to me too? Pretty please?

 

[awyala]

PS, any chance you know ur top speed going into turn one on the straight? I am curious about how hard I can push the front. I didn't seem to generate any front tire balling on Saturday.

 

[omnivore]

Braking early for T1 and T2.
Waiting too long to start accel away from T1
T2 can be taken quite a bit faster as far as midcorner speed...don't let the bumps on the way in unsettle you.....just run T2 and T3 as though they were one decreasing radius turn....You could spend less time coasting with throttle closed.........just accel and brake. Don't stop accel until you need to brake. And no need to roll off throttle before last left. You can stay steady throttle before and thru the left, and maybe even keep accel with practise.
Your infield is very good, and smooth.....damn good for riding such a monster, and just starting out.

 

[Corsara]

Care to flip it over to me too? Pretty please?

Yeah of course, I'm heading to the office right now, but I'll sum up the advice I got and send it over later today.

PS, any chance you know ur top speed going into turn one on the straight? I am curious about how hard I can push the front. I didn't seem to generate any front tire balling on Saturday.

On the video above I pass the straight 3 times, and the top speeds for these passes are: 208.29 kph, 207.24 kph, 211.78 kph. Average speed for the laps is about 99kph. BTW, the precision is good (5Hz GPS).

Braking early for T1 and T2.
Waiting too long to start accel away from T1
T2 can be taken quite a bit faster as far as midcorner speed...don't let the bumps on the way in unsettle you.....just run T2 and T3 as though they were one decreasing radius turn....You could spend less time coasting with throttle closed.........just accel and brake. Don't stop accel until you need to brake. And no need to roll off throttle before last left. You can stay steady throttle before and thru the left, and maybe even keep accel with practise.
Your infield is very good, and smooth.....damn good for riding such a monster, and just starting out.

Thanks for this advice and also the flattering compliments!

 

[carboncat]

great riding bud ! turns 2/3 like omnivore said....come in faster make that one big turn.. theres another second there...turns 4/5 you need more speed flowing through.
when those little problems are fixed, your going to be down to 1 22's . you can only go so fast around a corner, the only way to get faster is late braking and driving out of the corners faster. (which could get ugly lol)

 

[smergy]

I only watched the first lap, but a few things

1.) you need to touch each apex, if your knee is not over the turtle, the line is wrong. Don't worry about lap times and corner speed as much as getting the line right. Once the line is right, you will gradually increase speed. Trying to get the line right and add speed is too much at one. Honestly, put the lap timer away for a bit, and just focus on the basics entry point, apex, and exit. Once you have that, then add speed. The majority of the turns you are missing the apex by a good margin.

2.) trailbreaking, coming into T2 is the key. Notice how you are completely off the brakes before turning in to 2? You can carry more speed. As omnivore said, its like one big decreasing radius corner. Carry the speed into 3, its a later braking corner, but as you start to slow, the radius of your turn will decrease. Hit your apex that way. Takes some practise to get it right. It'll feel like your too fast and going to miss the corner every time. Stay on the brakes, as you start to lean, proportionally let off the brakes, set your corner speed, then off the brakes and constant throttle (smoothly) once the entry speed is set, before the apex. Once you hit that apex, you should already be looking at the exit point your aiming for and start getting on the gas. Remember, the more you lean, the less brakes you can use.

 

[Brian P]

Only watched the first few seconds (have to go to work now) but you are way too far off the apex in the corners leading onto the front straight. You could park a bus between your line and each corner apex. That forces your line through the last two corners to be slower and it delays when you can start accelerating down the straight. I'm not a sub-1:20 rider ... but I do about the same lap times as yours with 1/3 the power ...

 

[YellowDuck]

Awesome thread.

I'm not fast so my comments don't mean much....but here are my impressions. Based on the lean angle (and assuming that your body position is not crap), it seems like you have very high corner speeds in most of the corners, at least for the line that you are on. To me, that is the hardest part to achieve so I think you should be very proud of that.

What others have said about missing many of the apexes is very obvious from the video - especially in 11 and 12, but also in 6 and 9. Really though that should be the easy part. It doesn't really take any balls to follow the correct line, the way it takes courage to carry big speed in the corners. I'll bet you can improve in that aspect very quickly.

As for the later braking / earlier throttle business, I have no opinion on that. Ideally (in theory) you should always be accelerating hard, cornering hard, or braking hard (or some combination of cornering / braking or cornering / accelerating), but to do that and keep the suspension settled you need to be skilled at trail braking into corners and also feeling how much throttle you can apply coming out of corners...I expect that those elements are where races are most often won or lost, between guys who can all follow a near perfect line and all corner to the limit. I think that's also where suspension setup is *really* going to matter (especially on the exits). I'm not in that world yet but you might be soon!

Look forward to the next report.

 

[YellowDuck]

2.) trailbreaking, coming into T2 is the key. Notice how you are completely off the brakes before turning in to 2? You can carry more speed. As omnivore said, its like one big decreasing radius corner. Carry the speed into 3, its a later braking corner, but as you start to slow, the radius of your turn will decrease. Hit your apex that way. Takes some practise to get it right. It'll feel like your too fast and going to miss the corner every time. Stay on the brakes, as you start to lean, proportionally let off the brakes, set your corner speed, then off the brakes and constant throttle (smoothly) once the entry speed is set, before the apex.

If you have time, could you clarify this a bit? Is the last sentence above just a general instruction, or does it also apply to a decreasing radius situation like 2/3? I am very interested in this because I almost always "double dip" between 2 and 3, and never use anything like all the room at the exit of 3. I originally *thought* you were saying that you need to be off the throttle between 2 and 3 to slow enough to hit the apex of 3. Is that right?

 

[awyala]

Ever so slightly off topic.....

1:20 at Cayuga seems to be some sort of psychological threshold; what would be the same psychological lap time bench mark for:

Shannonville -Long: (I'm guessing 2:00?)
Grand bend:
Mosport:
Bogie:

 

[awyala]

If you have time, could you clarify this a bit? Is the last sentence above just a general instruction, or does it also apply to a decreasing radius situation like 2/3? I am very interested in this because I almost always "double dip" between 2 and 3, and never use anything like all the room at the exit of 3. I originally *thought* you were saying that you need to be off the throttle between 2 and 3 to slow enough to hit the apex of 3. Is that right?

My understanding is turn 3 is more like a point and shoot apex. Come in wide and hot into 2 carry wide and use all of the width of the track, tighten the radius, then stand the bike up and fire it through and past the apex. Try and keep as straight a line as possible and swing wide (near the stains) into 4. Carry high corner speed into 4 and set up for another point and shoot exit for 5, keeping another straight line hard acceleration into 6. It is my understanding 3 through 6 have wide entries to string together a couple short straights and claw back some time. If you're too smooth through that series of turns you're way too late on the power to make up time. It is tempting to sweep through that series, coasting or with smooth throttle, but it really is a much more aggressive throttle-centric string of corners.

Corner 6 to the kink is also another opportunity for very hard acceleration. It tolerates wild (wheelie-eqsue) acceleration and sloppy fishtailing hard breaking through the kink. It leaves enough time to hang right and wide after the kink and set up turn 9 through 8.

The best tip I got this Saturday was how Cayuga is a track where 1 corner sets you up for the next 3 corners. Turn 2 and turn 7 is like that in that if you get them right, it will set the tone right.

 

[SFer]

Subscribed.

 

[TLDeano]

Subscribed.

Me too! I wana learn how to go quicker ...

 

[TLDeano]

#2 , you must be fully dedicated, setup and leaned over for a 180. don't look at the shape of the tracks edges. I see ppl ride up over the curbing and across the gras , and I cant believe they got out there. its big 180, with slight bar effort thru while decell, which scrubs your speed down.

 

[Corsara]

Lol, everybody, thank you extremely very much for all the tips & tricks! It's so much to digest, really can't wait for my next trackday to apply some of all this new knowledge!

Care to flip it over to me too? Pretty please?

Here are a few more pointers I got from a friend last night, some of them already covered publicly in the thread:

T1 - tighter lines through the apex, you should be hogging both shoulders, you are running wide on the exit.

T2 - find a good braking point in 2 and you will save some time in there as well.

T2 & T3 - think of it as one turn with 2 apex, increase your speed and it will be a continuous turn, at one point you straightened out in between 2 and 3, don't.

T6 - late entry then hard left and tight, you were running wide losing time.

T7 - Why are you braking before? I basically just let off the throttle a bit and only brake way after it.

T11 & T12 - Too wide, tighten your corners.

Additionally, on YouTube there are SOAR races at TMP from the past---watched one last night and all of this made sense, also all the advice in this thread from today is clearly shown in practice in the videos as well.

 

[TLDeano]

Lol, everybody, thank you extremely very much for all the tips & tricks! It's so much to digest, really can't wait for my next trackday to apply some of all this new knowledge!



Here are a few more pointers I got from a friend last night, some of them already covered publicly in the thread:

T1 - tighter lines through the apex, you should be hogging both shoulders, you are running wide on the exit.

T2 - find a good braking point in 2 and you will save some time in there as well.

T2 & T3 - think of it as one turn with 2 apex, increase your speed and it will be a continuous turn, at one point you straightened out in between 2 and 3, don't.

T6 - late entry then hard left and tight, you were running wide losing time.

T7 - Why are you braking before? I basically just let off the throttle a bit and only brake way after it.

T11 & T12 - Too wide, tighten your corners.

Additionally, on YouTube there are SOAR races at TMP from the past---watched one last night and all of this made sense, also all the advice in this thread from today is clearly shown in practice in the videos as well.

turn 10 should be fast, very very fast. sometimes my front wheel lifts transitioning from 9 to 10 that's a hard accelerating area .

 

[carboncat]

Lol, everybody, thank you extremely very much for all the tips & tricks! It's so much to digest, really can't wait for my next trackday to apply some of all this new knowledge!



Here are a few more pointers I got from a friend last night, some of them already covered publicly in the thread:

T1 - tighter lines through the apex, you should be hogging both shoulders, you are running wide on the exit.

T2 - find a good braking point in 2 and you will save some time in there as well.

T2 & T3 - think of it as one turn with 2 apex, increase your speed and it will be a continuous turn, at one point you straightened out in between 2 and 3, don't.

T6 - late entry then hard left and tight, you were running wide losing time.

T7 - Why are you braking before? I basically just let off the throttle a bit and only brake way after it.

T11 & T12 - Too wide, tighten your corners.

Additionally, on YouTube there are SOAR races at TMP from the past---watched one last night and all of this made sense, also all the advice in this thread from today is clearly shown in practice in the videos as well.

now thaT you know all that..... you better be in the 1:12's ya pu$$y!! LOL