September 11

Definitely. When making such arguments, it's customary to QUOTE YOUR SOURCE. Which you've failed to do.

1 - I have not made any arguements so I'm not sure what sources I should provide.
2 - I asked you to cite your sources, you have not yet done so.
3 - I asked if the PM report I linked was the one you're referring to. You confirmed that it was. That report debunks several of your claims. (ie, the steel doesn't melt) fairly concisely.
4 - I am not making any claims, so there's nothing for me to defend. I am challenging claims that you have made and you haven't defended them very well.




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Add to that outside air rushing in to the vacuum caused by the initial fires burning interior air inside a sealed building.

That's not what happens. The smoke was leaving the building in huge gouts - air was rushing *out* with lots of heat energy pushing it, and a relatively small amount of air was coming *in*. That's why the smoke was so black, choking and sooty (along with the burning of many oil-based materials such as plastics, inside the building). It's also why the smoke came out in gouts - the high energy hot air/smoke would push its way out and then suck in some fresh air... because the fires were starved for it. Next time you are setting a fire, put it in a steel box with relatively small openings partway up, and see what happens. It's a bit like what happens when you close the flue in a fireplace - if the air and smoke have to co-exist through the same opening, the fire won't burn so smoothly.

Internally, the building was designed specifically to stop the rush of air up stairwells and elevator shafts, by putting in barrier doors in the stairwells and staggering the elevator shafts with sealing doors. So the air didn't come up from the bottom of the building - nor did gallons of jet fuel go down the stairwell or elevator shaft for the same reason.

The buildings were also constructed with fire-proof materials. There was insulation over top of the steel beams.

It's in the report.

As an aside...I always wanted to chat to one of those nice NORAID people to ask what they thought about terrorism being committed on their soil and whether or not they might reconsider anything they did in the past.

Or whether they think they should be in military jail...
 
By the way.....it doesn't have to get that hot for structural integrity to be lost...steel softens at about 1000F.
 
2 - I asked you to cite your sources, you have not yet done so.

I'm the *only* one doing so. But I don't have the time to cite every study ever done.

3 - I asked if the PM report I linked was the one you're referring to. You confirmed that it was. That report debunks several of your claims. (ie, the steel doesn't melt) fairly concisely.

No, they *said* that they debunked it. However, they were not able to prove "concisely" how the buildings fell. I can *say* that I'm the fastest rider in the world or the richest man, but that doesn't mean it's true. Whether you believe PM or not, do you think that PM got it somehow "more right" than the NIST physical models that proved that the buildings didn't fall that way? In NIST's own opinion, which was in the official report?

Your counter-argument is that PM's report debunks my claims. However, you took that from *my* post that said that PM's report is junk science. One does not claim that you have proven something when you've proven the opposite is true. Are you surprised that I am incredulous at what you're trying to say?
 
By the way.....it doesn't have to get that hot for structural integrity to be lost...steel softens at about 1000F.

You make a good point. However, the estimates are that it didn't get anywhere near that hot because of the jet fuel. I already posted this source... skip to the summarization:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

This is the primarily line to understand:


Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).
"Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers."

In other words, fires did not cause the collapse of the structures. FEMA and NIST said it, and know it. The government and the media report that fires caused the collapses anyways - and so did Popular Mechanics. If all else fails, there is plausible deniability... "oh, that's what I heard reported on the news".

Here is a feature-length film explaining the Architects and Engineers group's findings (haven't seen it, watching it myself):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tTMMNTisBM

But I guess these people are all tinfoil-hatter conspiracy theorists which build things out of lego, too...
 
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That's not what happens. The smoke was leaving the building in huge gouts - air was rushing *out* with lots of heat energy pushing it, and a relatively small amount of air was coming *in*. That's why the smoke was so black, choking and sooty (along with the burning of many oil-based materials such as plastics, inside the building). It's also why the smoke came out in gouts - the high energy hot air/smoke would push its way out and then suck in some fresh air... because the fires were starved for it. Next time you are setting a fire, put it in a steel box with relatively small openings partway up, and see what happens. It's a bit like what happens when you close the flue in a fireplace - if the air and smoke have to co-exist through the same opening, the fire won't burn so smoothly.

Internally, the building was designed specifically to stop the rush of air up stairwells and elevator shafts, by putting in barrier doors in the stairwells and staggering the elevator shafts with sealing doors. So the air didn't come up from the bottom of the building - nor did gallons of jet fuel go down the stairwell or elevator shaft for the same reason.

The buildings were also constructed with fire-proof materials. There was insulation over top of the steel beams.

It's in the report.



Or whether they think they should be in military jail...

When they were constructing those stairwells and elevator shafts to prevent air from rushing to a fire, I doubt they thought much about a gaping 100' hole in the side of the building. :lol: Your theory just keeps getting better... apparently you're an expert on fires now too.
 
Another awesome argument: the office fire in '75 didn't cause structural damage so clearly another fire in 2001 wouldn't have affected the building either......... nevermind the fact that an airliner punched through one side and out the other 20 minutes earlier.



**** me. :lol:
 
When they were constructing those stairwells and elevator shafts to prevent air from rushing to a fire, I doubt they thought much about a gaping 100' hole in the side of the building. :lol: Your theory just keeps getting better... apparently you're an expert on fires now too.

Well, genius, what hole was in WTC7?

And what 100' hole are you talking about? The hole was 87' in size. But just as importantly, that hole covered a number of floors and was not a hole completely through the building, the floor structure was maintained as per the official report. But since you clearly know how a hole in a building that size works, please elucidate.

Another awesome argument: the office fire in '75 didn't cause structural damage so clearly another fire in 2001 wouldn't have affected the building either......... nevermind the fact that an airliner punched through one side and out the other 20 minutes earlier.

So you say that you believe the official story. But the official story is that fires did not cause the buildings to collapse.

Make up your mind genius, which is it? Do you even know who FEMA is?
 
I'm the *only* one doing so. But I don't have the time to cite every study ever done.



No, they *said* that they debunked it. However, they were not able to prove "concisely" how the buildings fell. I can *say* that I'm the fastest rider in the world or the richest man, but that doesn't mean it's true. Whether you believe PM or not, do you think that PM got it somehow "more right" than the NIST physical models that proved that the buildings didn't fall that way? In NIST's own opinion, which was in the official report?

Your counter-argument is that PM's report debunks my claims. However, you took that from *my* post that said that PM's report is junk science. One does not claim that you have proven something when you've proven the opposite is true. Are you surprised that I am incredulous at what you're trying to say?

You still haven't properly cited any reliable sources. Conspiracy websites don't count.

I already mentioned the fire temp issue. You never contested that. PM says 1800 degrees, you reference some mystery 'estimates' that claim it was much lower.

You claim the building should be able to hold itself up, which is a static load, but fail to see the difference in having the top section drop 12' onto the lower section.

I seriously don't think you even see the flaws in the arguments you're making. When you're challenged you just dance around it. PM also touches on WT7, can you respond to their argument?

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You still haven't properly cited any reliable sources. Conspiracy websites don't count.

I quoted the official report. I might agree with you that it isn't reliable... but that's what YOU are saying happened.

I already mentioned the fire temp issue. You never contested that. PM says 1800 degrees, you reference some mystery 'estimates' that claim it was much lower.

FEMA. FEMA and NIST said it. So did PM - they just pumped their data up to 1800 degrees to make the results fit their agenda, but the investigators - including PM's own - failed to show how that was possible. Watch their documentary.

You claim the building should be able to hold itself up, which is a static load, but fail to see the difference in having the top section drop 12' onto the lower section.

I totally do not. It was designed to hold *twice* its static load. So if a top section dropped 12', there's a short term dynamic load, but does the whole building drop in seconds? Well, NIST physically modelled it and said no. It's in the official report, not just some conspiracy web site.

Do I really need to go through the NIST report to prove my point? Cuz if that's what you're saying, what's going to happen is that I'm going to have a decaf and hit the sack instead, if that's OK with you.

I seriously don't think you even see the flaws in the arguments you're making

I seriously think you have reading comprehension problems. I continue to talk about the OFFICIAL REPORT, and how they say that they COULD NOT RECREATE THEIR HYPOTHESIS about how the towers fell, and did not believe it could have happened that way. I also quoted the lead engineer for the building. Then I quoted FEMA's report on the fire.

So who are you going to believe... me, or all the government engineers you think said it happened in a pancake collapse...... who actually said that that it didn't?
 
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Oh boy, you really got me there!

It's pretty easy. Your counter-arguments are just insults.

Isn't it kinda late for you? School tomorrow, you don't want to miss show-and-tell.
 
Shaman yaps a lot about NIST and various reports but doesn't actually post anything so I will, straight from NIST

Objective 1: Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft.
The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components (core columns, floors, and perimeter columns) that were directly impacted by the aircraft or associated debris. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation (fireproofing) and the subsequent multi-floor fires. The robustness of the perimeter frame-tube system and the large size of the buildings helped the towers withstand the impact. The structural system redistributed loads from places of aircraft impact, avoiding larger scale damage upon impact. The hat truss, a feature atop each tower which was intended to support a television antenna, prevented earlier collapse of the building core. In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse.
In WTC 1, the fires weakened the core columns and caused the floors on the south side of the building to sag. The floors pulled the heated south perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the south wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by how long it took for the fires to weaken the building core and to reach the south side of the building and weaken the perimeter columns and floors.
In WTC 2, the core was damaged severely at the southeast corner and was restrained by the east and south walls via the hat truss and the floors. The steady burning fires on the east side of the building caused the floors there to sag. The floors pulled the heated east perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the east wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the east and to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by the time for the fires to weaken the perimeter columns and floor assemblies on the east and the south sides of the building. WTC2 collapsed more quickly than WTC 1 because there was more aircraft damage to the building core, including one of the heavily loaded corner columns, and there were early and persistent fires on the east side of the building, where the aircraft had extensively dislodged insulation from the structural steel.
The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires that were encountered on September11, 2001, if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.
In the absence of structural and insulation damage, a conventional fire substantially similar to or less intense than the fires encountered on September 11, 2001, likely would not have led to the collapse of a WTC tower.

NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly showed that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward, until the dust clouds obscured the view.

You, are, clueless.
 
Mythbusters have banned all 9/11 talk on their forum and won't do a show about it. How much more prove do you people need? :D
 
Nice work. Except for this: you read what they said about why the buildings collapse. But not the conclusion.

The conclusion was that they were unable to prove that any of that happened with any of their models. And that's what I said. That means what you posted falls firmly in the realm of unsubstantiated hypothesis. Have fun reading the whole report only to end up at the conclusion that they were unable to prove any of it.

Reading comprehension. It's what's for breakfast. Be sure to grab your lunch pail on the way out.

" For studying the impact on a 110-story building by an actual Boeing 767 aircraft, a full-scale test was not feasible. For a test to capture the response of the towers as a system, it would have been necessary to construct a test assembly that included the core columns, exterior columns, floors and hat truss. Even to replicate experimentally the response of the floors near and above the impact zones would have required test assemblies of about 20 stories for WTC 1 and 30 stories for WTC 2. No facility exists to conduct such a test, either with fire or in the absence of fire; and, indeed, such tests are not conducted in current engineering practice.
Therefore, NIST relied on high-fidelity finite element modeling of the aircraft impact event and subsequent fires. The analyses were calibrated against the observed structural response of the towers upon impact (videos, photographs, and physical evidence) and the evolution of the ensuing fires.
NIST did not conduct reduced-scale system-level tests because there are no generally accepted scaling laws that apply to fire propagation, temperature evolution, and structural response.
Furthermore, fire test facilities with the capability to apply arbitrary fire exposures (in contrast to the standard time-temperature exposure) and arbitrary loads to structural components did not exist in the United States at the time of the investigation. Even had such a facility been existent, each large-scale structural fire test would have evaluated only a single set of conditions, e.g., structural system, fire exposure, amount of fireproofing, etc. Even a modest parametric series of such tests would have been prohibitively expensive.
NIST did conduct full-scale fire tests of single and multiple workstations. These tests were of sufficient size to properly capture the combustion physics. These tests established burning histories, mass burning rates, and heat release rates. The results were used to validate the fire dynamics calculations for fire growth and spread (see NIST NCSTAR 1-5E). NIST also conducted full-scale fire tests exposing insulated and bare structural elements to real fires to validate the fire and thermal modeling approaches (see NIST NCSTAR 1-5B). "

So, that's a long-winded way of saying that they weren't able to model the events but did get some good data. However, that's not the end of it. But while I'm here, there's this gem:

"Nearly all fires are limited either by the burning rate of combustible fuel (fuel-limited fires) or by the availability of air (ventilation-limited fires). Many fires that are ventilation limited do continue to burn, with the burning rate determined by the chemistry of the combustion and the rate at which the oxygen arrives. This was generally the case for the WTC Tower fires. Of course, if the rate of air inflow were too slow (e.g., due to very few broken windows), the limited combustion would not have generated sufficient heat to continue pyrolyzing fuel, and the fire would have gone out. This was not the case on the fire floors in the WTC Towers."

Note where they said that the fires were oxygen limited. Ah, yes. Yes they were. Yet they chose the worst case scenario for the fires, as if they were operating with full oxygen delivery.

Let's poke some more holes:

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel… The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified."

Oh really. That doesn't happen in normal fires. ;) But then, the NIST report doesn't even try to explain the molten metal found at the site, although FEMA found and confirms it.

I'm looking for quotes of the lines of conclusion... this is going to take me longer than I have tonight. It's not like I keep a staff to do this kind of thing. If I'm able I will do that tomorrow.
 
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Nice work. Except for this: you read what they said about why the buildings collapse. But not the conclusion.

The conclusion was that they were unable to prove that any of that happened with any of their models. And that's what I said. That means what you posted falls firmly in the realm of unsubstantiated hypothesis. Have fun reading the whole report only to end up at the conclusion that they were unable to prove any of it.

Reading comprehension. It's what's for breakfast. Be sure to grab your lunch pail on the way out.

They couldn't model it so clearly the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition...



Yeah, and THAT'S whats for breakfast :lol:
 
Trust me guys this is just superficial damage, those massive in/out holes and multi-floor fires couldn't have brought the buildings down... the stairwells and elevator shafts were well sealed! :lol:

Also, we couldn't "model" it in a "computer" even though it happened in front of us on live television

DSCF0129.jpg
 
You must be deliberately trying to be thick. I'm starting to think that I'm wrestling a pig here... I'm just getting filthy and the pig likes it.
 
I'm not too sure why this discussion has gone on this long as it is clear that Shaman truly believes that the information he/she has gathered via trustworthy conspiracy theorist sites to be true. I believe that everyone has a right to believe in what they believe in, including the toothfairy and Santa Claus so why can't he or she believe in this theory.

Shaman, I do have a question for you though. If the buildings were brought down by explosives (highly time consuming and intrusive to install would likely have been noticed by the office worker or the like) or some other device planted by whomever you believe to have committed this heinous acts, why did they bother to put planes into the buildings why not just use more explosives?

The fact of the matter is that the building came down and people died, those people deserve some respect today and that's all.
 
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