awyala
Guest
Read your post. Good read. I'll take your points. Even your brand of humour.
Separatists run over Canadian flag in Montreal
- Thread starter killerkeith
- Start date
Read your post. Good read. I'll take your points. Even your brand of humour.
rmemedic
Well-known member
Honestly, that is what gets me about it. They live here. A bunch of whoever in some country I've never heard of burning our flag for some false reason, while it does bother me I can just go "Meh... Idiots". But citizens of this country doing it is a different deal.
awyala
Guest
Actually that would be a great idea. As a side note, I am not a fan of WW1 by any stretch. The cause and motives for that war were perhaps nearly as heinous (on the Allied side) as WW2's was. Why Canada fought in that "great war" is beyond me, other than simply being economically forced to do so. Volunteer or not, that's not a major issue to overcome, simple propaganda and a paycheque solves that issue and the most recent American wars are proof of that. In fact the draft is what back fired, I mean why have people on the front in an aggressive war that demoralize the others who want to be there?!?! Better to have a cohesive unit than a bloated doubtful unit. And the modern era of sterile automated warfare is a further testament to that principle.
So I don't have much respect for a volunteer force in an aggressive "pre-emptive" war.
In terms of WW1, the back history going back to the Treaty Of Paris in 1814 sheds a lot of light onto its motives followed by the creation of Germany under Bismark and the First Reich. An important quote of his when asked of him "Why is German not trying to acquire colonies in Africa?", he replied "Europe is our Africa". Meaning as a new nation, deliberately restricted from being formed by the powers of Europe at the time, it was enough for Germans to unify the German principalities under the nose of France, Britain, Hungary, Prussia and Russia. It was the attitude of empires and colonists that saw Germany stifled and eventually wish to create their own new empire. I can't blame them for that! The Allies were actually thee most hostile aggressive force in WW1 and had their eyes set on picking apart the Ottoman empire for near 100 years prior. The Suez Canal and the suppression of Mohamed Ali Pasha is a testament to that fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1814)
So....the poppy and the legion....basically a social safety net because the allied governments didn't have or didn't allocate the spoils of war to the legacy of their own serving soldiers. The soldiers had to raise their own supplementary funding and manage their own propaganda campaign.
Hear about those old ladies in the Maritime 2 weeks ago who were knitting their own poppies for $5 a pop to give to soldiers? Hear how the legion shut them down!!!!!??? and refused to even work with them?!?!?! That's right, the poppy is a fund raising trademark.
http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/legion-asks-group-to-stop-distributing-knitted-poppies-1.1025539
Wear a white poppy for peace and see the treatment you get. Wear a white poppy into a Legion meeting and see how energized those folks get.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_(symbol)
Sorry but I am tired of the lies, cover ups and hype they shove down our throats on Remembrance day.
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The poppy is trademarked. Start selling knock off Harley Davidson t-shirts and see how far you get.
awyala
Guest
You don't seem to get it, the people who stomped on that flag in the video were more Canadian than you! Canada has a tradition of open French and British hostility going back to its colonial foundations! It is very much part of Canada to have had actually war between the two sides! Expressing this hostility now in the "free speech" form is as Canadian as it gets!
It is also as benign as it gets. You need to learn what this flag stands for, rather that what everyone idealizes it stands for. This country is a former British and French colony. As much as you think it has a social safety net (which by the way I like), there is another former colony down south which happens to think socialist states hold back individual expression and growth and ultimately stifle potential economic success. There are plenty that think our socialist system is crumbling like the European systems. Not that I necessarily agree, but note that not everyone believes this system is a good one, including our Republican leaning newly revived PC party, elected repeatedly!!! So, what Canada "stands for" is always changing. Canada is certainly not what it was under Trudeau. Canada is far too American leaning these days for my tastes.
No country is right, nor consistent, nor homogeneous. It is just a politically organized state with a semi-fixed legal system and a set of rules that are (supposed) to provide a framework to allow for mutual success among its citizens for the greater growth and success. States based on theologies are often heavily criticized and ultimately fail due to their rigidity and inability to flexibly adapt to changing circumstances. Canada on the other hand is flexible and ultimately lacks a rigid ethos! Canada changes with the wind. Once a genocidal colony, to an infighting group of territories, to a politically isolationist realist state under the servitude of the British, to a political moral beacon, and now back to an empirical hype man. The glory days of Canada were actually a few fleeting decades a couple of decades ago.
One should not stand for blind loyalty to a flag. One should stand for a flexible tool box and set of principles, a dynamic ethical code. If everyone applies that code, a de facto state arises from Justice (and here I am referring to the foundation of the modern Western democratic theory - The Republic). The state is the manifestation of Justice. What justice? Justice for who? That's the critical nuance. And even if that justice is fine and dandy now, has it always been? Will it always be? The flag does not represent that justice, for it assumes everyone under the flag is just! The flag is just the flag, and to follow that is to be misdirected with blind patriotic loyalty. Flags identify the scope and breadth of a particular political entity, they are a quick reference symbol for easy identification. They are not sacred, nor are they embodiment of perfect values. If someone has a problem with an element or portion of what that political entity is doing, burning a flag is not sacrilegious, it is an expression. Canada, or for that matter any political entity is not a "take it or leave it" proposition; rather it can be altered, amended and corrected, or even worsen and degrade.
So neither are the protesters right to insult EVERYTHING that is Canada, but neither are you entitled to assume that they are, nor assume that the flag even represents EVERYTHING CANADIAN! It is just a quick reference visual aid, get over it.
PS, before anyone bandies around the word "freedom", please define it first, as in a finite space, "freedom" is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery subjective flexible term. "freedom" does not and cannot mean the same thing in every instance. So when one states, they "stand for freedom", they clearly stand for hype and propaganda as they have no real concept of what freedom means.
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bunmanchi
Banned
you wrote this.
but if you spout off your ******** in public
a violent act will probably happen to you
save yourself now, and get out of Canada
move to palestine and be happy
awyala
Guest
Yep. I agree. And the point of the poppy / legion?
awyala
Guest
Even in "free speech" Canada?
PS read my quote again...I appreciate speaking candidly to a frustrated idiot is not the best course of action. So no you won't find me on a "speakers corner soap box", or in a Timmy's parking lot shooting the breeze with you.
Not sure if you speak for yourself or this forum, but if you feel this forum is too ignorant or frustrated for an open debate or conversation, maybe it is time for a review on both our parts, no?
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awyala
Guest
Some key points:
- History
- By 1918—more than 15 veterans' groups and regimental associations with common goals but fragmented and largely unsuccessful
- This was as a result of WW1, not a particularly just war for the Allies, in fact an aggressive war by all accounts, unless you were indoctrinated otherwise.
- 1925—Appeal for Unity led to formation of Dominion Veterans Alliance
- Legion founded at Winnipeg in November, 1925 as the Canadian Legion of the British Empire Services League (BESL) and incorporated in 1926
- Not a Canadian institution, once again, another British / foreign influence.
- BESL—founded in 1921 as coalition of Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand and is now known as the Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League
- The Legion does not include, nor does the poppy by extension include support or recognition of fallen or veterans of the "other side". It is strictly an Allied service. It is not about the fallen in war, but rather the fallen on the side of the Allies, and hence a function of half truth and propaganda.
- (RCEL) with 57 member organizations from 47 nations
- Legion goals of providing strong voice for veterans and to advise the government maintained and Legion became a persuasive advocate for veterans and their families
- 1930—passage of War Veterans' Allowance Act won financial assistance for men who had not been eligible for disability pensions even though they had been incapacitated by war service
- Let down by their own government, the Legion resorts to fund raising for themselves! Them spoils weren't shared equitably it seems!
- The Second World War saw increased Legion efforts with in-theatre comfort, canteens, entertainment at home and abroad as well as courses to assist their return to civilian life
- From the outset of the war, the Legion prepared for the troops' return with financial compensation, clothing allowances, pensions, medical treatment, training and land settlements. This nation-wide network of professional assistance continues today
- 1949—The Great War Veterans' Association of Newfoundland amalgamated with the Canadian Legion of the BESL
- Support for the troops continued during the Korean War, and after, the Legion became increasingly involved in the community
- 1960—"Royal" added to the Legion's name with the Queen's consent
- Useless outdated propaganda.
- 2006—New Veterans Charter raises the complexity of claims
- The Legion and the poppy just keep adding wars, causes, and veterans to its original mandate, thus diluting its moral position that it tries to take. For all intents and purposes it is merely a private / mandated social safety net the government has deferred to over the years. It has no moral focus or direction. It merely provides assistance and support to any Allied or Canadian soldier in this case from any war, unjust or otherwise.
- Efforts to improve lives of veterans and ex-service members succeed due to the Legion's membership at all levels including Veterans Independence Program, spousal benefits, Pension Review Board and recognition of Dieppe and Hong Kong veterans.
The legion is not a moral benchmark, it is merely a private social service that arose from a neglectful, opportunistic government that threw it's colonies into the "Great War". I would be more impressed if the Legion took a stand against unjust wars and legally stuck the government for financial claims in the event of unjust wars. However that is not their mandate nor is it the government's duty to provide for volunteer soldiers. Soldiers are paid a salary and concent to the risks. If a soldier signs on the dotted line without investigating what recourse he / she has while injured on the job, well, what can I say.
It is one thing to be under threat, and join a morally just war, and expect your government look after you once it is over, but it is another thing to join a professional free standing army as a career with a salary and benefits and simply follow deployment orders into any battlefield regardless of one's political knowledge and understanding, and then to expect government aid. The Legion covers both aspects as it takes no moral position and subsidizes the government who has historically abandoned it's veterans after their usefulness, even in wars they tout as being an moral obligation! The Legion, as I see it represents a failure somewhere in system, both morally and socially.
At the same time it also captures a certain entrepreneurial and private citizen do gooder spirit, however it is not as simple and clean cut as that. Like the flag, wars, and politics, it is not a universally good entity and does not deserve universal unquestioned support or admiration. It is merely a social programme with strengths and weaknesses.
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Spin it however you like. They exist to support veterans who need support.
awyala
Guest
I agree.
awyala
Guest
Finally, it's settled, Canada is #1
I can't lie, Canada has a high degree of awesomeness!
Finally, it's settled, Canada is #1
Canada ain't #1. But then neither is anywhere else in the world. Everywhere has it's pluses and minuses. But if someone chooses to live in a country, they should respect the country, it's people, it's traditions and above all else it's flag, for the very reason it symbolises the country that you choose to live in.
The only vet i know is my father in law.He never talks about it other than to ask me to clean his medals.His stuff is packed away in my storage space.In there is his helmet with a bullet hole in it.He would turn blue if he saw the vid!
I bet the Toronto 18 respected our flag in public. It doesn't mean anything. These "acts of patriotism" are pure showmanship regardless of who does them. Real patriotism is behaving according to the values of the country, and even more so, defending those values.
While desecrating the flag is view as unpatriotic, so is beating up the guy who desecrates the flag since Canadian values include allowing the open dissent of our institutions. In both instances, people are being unpatriotic, but it's only the second guy who's actually causing any harm. This is why I find it ridiculous to worship national emblems like that. Even if we are the awesomest number one country in the world like, EVAR... get over it! The country isn't perfect, and it will variously worsen and improve over time. If we're going to maintain our values then we would NEVER subjugate our critical opinion to some silly idolatry.
For those who think I'm not Canadian enough, duly noted. Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion.
Are you a "proud Canadian"?
That argument in no way invalidates that the people who are desecrating the flag, in that video, are scum who have no appreciation for the very country that gives them the sort of freedoms that they have to actually do such a thing, without fearing government reprisals up to and including death, that they would face elsewhere.
They could be scum for plenty of reasons. I don't know what their problem is exactly so I don't judge. They're not scum for desecrating the flag, any more than defending the flag makes anyone a hero. The flag represents Canada, it is not Canada.
