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Osama

caboose483 said:
I'm not a civil engineer but i know that the WTC towers were constructed differently than most buildings (like FullMoto wrote). With that in mind, I don't think how they collapsed is impossible.

Structural steel loses a lot of its strength at the temperature at which jet fuel burns. It would have taken some time to heat that steel and thus weaken it. How much time? I don't know.. I'm not an expert.. some time.. When the steel had been weakened enough, the structure above the fire collapsed on the structure below it. The "exoskeleton" design mitigated a cascade failure that traveled straight down.

How long are you out of school? You're an expert? :rolleyes:
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Not an expert but I am sure the entire skeleton didn't heat up with the speed that failure occured. Since I am not sure whether the building was entirely steel, or reinforced concrete. If it were reinforced concrete I would say its just about impposible for the steel to have weakened enough from the heat. If the entire structure was steel which is covered with concrete fireproofing it would be very difficult to heat the frame sufficient (and evenly) enough to get a collapse failure the way it occured. Controlled demolition experts could only hope for that good of a failure. A plane crashing into the side of the building causing it to collapse in a perfectly controlled manner? I believe in coincidence but this is a stretch for me. Like I said I don't believe it was a ploy from the government or anything. But the failure of the structure is just too perfect. Something certainly wasn't right.

And some of the US intelligence afterwards doesn't help matter like claiming to find passports in the wreckage of people (terrorists) on the plane. Right so the steel frame got so hot it yielded yet the passports survived the fire. YEAAAH.
 
Freestyle72 said:
Not an expert but I am sure the entire skeleton didn't heat up with the speed that failure occured. Since I am not sure whether the building was entirely steel, or reinforced concrete. If it were reinforced concrete I would say its just about impposible for the steel to have weakened enough from the heat. If the entire structure was steel which is covered with concrete fireproofing it would be very difficult to heat the frame sufficient (and evenly) enough to get a collapse failure the way it occured. Controlled demolition experts could only hope for that good of a failure. A plane crashing into the side of the building causing it to collapse in a perfectly controlled manner? I believe in coincidence but this is a stretch for me. Like I said I don't believe it was a ploy from the government or anything. But the failure of the structure is just too perfect. Something certainly wasn't right.

And some of the US intelligence afterwards doesn't help matter like claiming to find passports in the wreckage of people (terrorists) on the plane. Right so the steel frame got so hot it yielded yet the passports survived the fire. YEAAAH.
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http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html

read that
 
mmmnaked said:
One which doesn't indiscriminately kill civilians in an effort to elicit fear and terror, I'd say.

Granted it could be argued that western governments are guilty of committing such acts themselves, but that's a whole other thread and a whole other ballgame. At least they make it seem like they do their homework before launching tomahawks, even if the occasional one lands on a hospital or school.
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I don't think it would be fair to claim that any Western powers target civilians, but some have almost certainly funded some guerilla organisations that do resort to terrorism. But that's neither here nor there. If you ask me, any organisation that is legitimate enough to target in a "war" is also legitimate enough to negotiate with.
 
Freestyle72 said:
Not an expert but I am sure the entire skeleton didn't heat up with the speed that failure occured.
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:lol: and just how much of the structural steel in a particular floor of the building had to heat up for the mass of all the floors above it to collapse?

You're in way over your head, it's hilarious. You formed such a steadfast opinion on this nutjob conspiracy theory but you haven't even done the basic research to find out how the building is constructed? You haven't even watched an episode of mythbusters to see how quickly structural steel loses its strength when heated? You're hopelessly confused...
 
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Note on the carcass disposal... Let's assume they really did off him (not 100% convinced on that one).. I'd say that sea disposal was the lesser of all evils...
1) Wait for more than 24hrs and all the terrorizers (yeah yeah, I know how it's spelled) will get their turbans in a bunch over the treatment of his remains
2) No country would wanna accept his carcass because then they would have every terrorist an terrorist wannabe on the planet coming in for pilgrimage, so they couldn't have buried him anywhere
3) They dump him into the sea and he becomes Elvis.. I think I've seen him selling smokes to children at the corner store :cool:
 
fastar1 said:
I don't think it would be fair to claim that any Western powers target civilians,
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The U.S. did target media outlets that had zero military presence on or around the premises. However, they are becoming less and less of a power with every day, so a couple of years from now, your statement might just become correct :cool:
 
Freestyle72 said:
Not an expert but I am sure the entire skeleton didn't heat up with the speed that failure occured.
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I think I see the misunderstanding.

The collapse happened (almost) instantly, but that doesn't mean that all structural pieces were compromised in an equal manner over the exact same period of time. Once any one of the load carrying systems was weakened enough to fail, the load that it was carrying had to be transferred to the remaining structure. If that additional load wasn't enough to cause another structure to fail then the building would hold up in it's entirety a little while longer. But once enough structures failed that the next piece couldn't support the additional weight, a nearly instantaneous chain reaction (taking maybe as much as a few seconds) would occur as though all load bearing systems failed at once. It is that very slight delay and disorder in the failure sequence is what cause the tops of the towers to topple and twist on their way down.
 
fastar1 said:
I think I see the misunderstanding.

The collapse happened (almost) instantly, but that doesn't mean that all structural pieces were compromised in an equal manner over the exact same period of time. Once any one of the load carrying systems was weakened enough to fail, the load that it was carrying had to be transferred to the remaining structure. If that additional load wasn't enough to cause another structure to fail then the building would hold up in it's entirety a little while longer. But once enough structures failed that the next piece couldn't support the additional weight, a nearly instantaneous chain reaction (taking maybe as much as a few seconds) would occur as though all load bearing systems failed at once. It is that very slight delay and disorder in the failure sequence is what cause the tops of the towers to topple and twist on their way down.
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Didn't the second floor of the WTC technically support the entire weight of all the floors above it for years without failing? The total weight did not increase magically, it was always there. But, what was not there, was the cascading increasing weight being dropped 20 feet at a time on the next floor down. I would think that hammer effect that went up for every floor that failed is what created the perfect demolition of the building.

As for Osama, seeing as how the quickest DNA can be turned around is about 72 hours, we have two more days to wait to see if it was him. I do not really understand how the americans can say justice was served, when they are the ones that insist on rights, and right to trial, right to face your accusor, all that yankee crap. Where did it all go? And to have the president stand there and justice was done, is just plain wrong. It was not done.
Be interesting to see how they figured it was him. Anything I can find on bin laden shows varied stats on his height and weight. Some say 6'4", some say 6'8", most say 175 pounds. Makes it tough to simply measure his height (his weight can change a great deal is a short time) when you can't get it to within an inch of saying for sure. And then to just toss the body in the ocean, citing muslim laws as the reason why, what did the muslim law have to say about offing the guy in the first place? Going to be an interesting next few days...
 
bear22099 said:
Didn't the second floor of the WTC technically support the entire weight of all the floors above it for years without failing? The total weight did not increase magically, it was always there. But, what was not there, was the cascading increasing weight being dropped 20 feet at a time on the next floor down. I would think that hammer effect that went up for every floor that failed is what created the perfect demolition of the building.
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That's right, the total weight didn't change, it's the weight ON EACH PILLAR that increased as each neighbouring one failed. None of the pillars failed at the level of the 2nd floor, so the pillars didn't have to carry any excess load at the level.

And yeah, I would guess that as each floor pancaked on top of the other, it served to help keep the collapse in alignment almost all the way down.
 
bear22099 said:
Didn't the second floor of the WTC technically support the entire weight of all the floors above it for years without failing? The total weight did not increase magically, it was always there. But, what was not there, was the cascading increasing weight being dropped 20 feet at a time on the next floor down. I would think that hammer effect that went up for every floor that failed is what created the perfect demolition of the building.

As for Osama, seeing as how the quickest DNA can be turned around is about 72 hours, we have two more days to wait to see if it was him. I do not really understand how the americans can say justice was served, when they are the ones that insist on rights, and right to trial, right to face your accusor, all that yankee crap. Where did it all go? And to have the president stand there and justice was done, is just plain wrong. It was not done.
Be interesting to see how they figured it was him. Anything I can find on bin laden shows varied stats on his height and weight. Some say 6'4", some say 6'8", most say 175 pounds. Makes it tough to simply measure his height (his weight can change a great deal is a short time) when you can't get it to within an inch of saying for sure. And then to just toss the body in the ocean, citing muslim laws as the reason why, what did the muslim law have to say about offing the guy in the first place? Going to be an interesting next few days...
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Apparently the DNA test has already been done. 99.9% certainty it was bin Laden. I don't know how they compared the DNA. Strangely quick.

This could have all taken place last week for all we know. Did they say it actually happened yesterday?

As for justice being done, I agree with you. They shouldn't celebrate this too much - this whole event, however justified, is not in keeping with the principles upon which the USA was founded.

I have a hard time imagining Ben Franklin and the boys carrying out an assassination halfway around the world and telling their citizens how the event will make them a great nation. But I didn't know the man personally, so I could be wrong.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
I haven't read the 5 pages on this thread yet but I call BS on this. Remember when the US caught Saddam Hussain? pictures and videos everywhere to prove the US was victorious. Do you really believe if the US caught Osama after 10 years they would just say to the whole fn world, "we killed him and threw the body in the ocean" not me. I won't believe it until I see it.
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Same here, i didn't read more than the first few posts and the ones on the last page.
But if they did kill him there would be more proof, not just some pics. of him that look like he looked 10 years ago with PS gun wound and blood.
I also believe the government planned 9/11 there is just to many things that are out of whack.
 
Let's not forget the eyewitness testimony of people who lived in the Pakistani suburb where Bin Laden was killed.

Also, I just can't buy any big conspiracy theory. Any manager will tell you that it's hard to get ten guys to do things exactly the way you want them to. Really big conspiracies would require at least hundreds of people executing their subterfuge perfectly, least they alert any whistle-blowers.

Think about this: only 10 people initially knew of Nixon's involvement in Watergate, and we all know what happened there.

And lastly, remember the Wiki-Leaks thing? Did we really learn anything of substance in terms of governments hiding big secrets?
 
Something I just found

[video=youtube;fI5b3Ir012k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5b3Ir012k&feature=player_embedded[/video]
 
Edders said:
Let's not forget the eyewitness testimony of people who lived in the Pakistani suburb where Bin Laden was killed.

Also, I just can't buy any big conspiracy theory. Any manager will tell you that it's hard to get ten guys to do things exactly the way you want them to. Really big conspiracies would require at least hundreds of people executing their subterfuge perfectly, least they alert any whistle-blowers.

Think about this: only 10 people initially knew of Nixon's involvement in Watergate, and we all know what happened there.

And lastly, remember the Wiki-Leaks thing? Did we really learn anything of substance in terms of governments hiding big secrets?
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Finally somebody with some common sense. Conspiracy Theories that encompass 50 people (never mind hundreds) are just as credible as unicorns. Try telling 5 people about something secret and you can time exactly how long it takes for it to leak...it will be less than a few hours.
 
guym said:
Something I just found

[video=youtube;fI5b3Ir012k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5b3Ir012k&feature=player_embedded[/video]
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What nonsense....these "youtube" journalists get more idiotic every time I see them.
 
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