Occupy Bay street

[FiReSTaRT]

Accountability? There is none, anymore. And we agree on this point: that's the first problem that needs to be addressed.

Good point. Democracy is about who has the money to mount a good marketing campaign. There is no real accountability in modern democracies. The whole system is broken from our perspective. Of course, there is a small proportion of the population that likes things just the way they are and the way they're going. There's a good chance that they don't live next door to you or me

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Good point. Democracy is about who has the money to mount a good marketing campaign. There is no real accountability in modern democracies. The whole system is broken from our perspective. Of course, there is a small proportion of the population that likes things just the way they are and the way they're going. There's a good chance that they don't live next door to you or me

Thing about that, is they only have so many votes. 'Taking back' our government is trivially simple. All it takes is the collective will to do so.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Thing about that, is they only have so many votes. 'Taking back' our government is trivially simple. All it takes is the collective will to do so.

I have 2 issues with your statement..

1) It's hard to educate enough people when there is virtually no independent media in this country. All of it is for sale an controlled by big money interests. The only independent major outlet is under attack by Quebecor and I'm just waiting for the Fed to cut the funding to them.

2) Votes can also be adjusted.. Think Florida

 

[backmarkerducati]

I have 2 issues with your statement..

1) It's hard to educate enough people when there is virtually no independent media in this country. All of it is for sale an controlled by big money interests. The only independent major outlet is under attack by Quebecor and I'm just waiting for the Fed to cut the funding to them.

2) Votes can also be adjusted.. Think Florida

Votes can be adjusted, look at places like Venezuela but if they were being adjusted you would think that the same party (the one controlling the votes) would get in over and over again. Problem with the controlled vote theory in Canada (or the US) is that the same party is not getting in over and over again...

So either there is some greater conspiracy where the Liberals, Conservative, and NDP are deciding and agreeing pre-election on who is going to win or the entire idea is aluminum foil hat...

As for the media being controlled, well that is true to a point (they all have biases, specially the CBC). What has been tapped into very poorly is social media, which is very low cost and Justin Beiber effective...

In the end the politicians need to get and keep their jobs to push their agendas (whatever that agenda may be). They will only listen to two things (money for advertising and votes). BTW money is the tool they use to gt votes. If you want change, the answer is money and votes--but mostly votes.

Problem is the so called 99%ers do not represent anywhere near 99% of the votes.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I have 2 issues with your statement..

1) It's hard to educate enough people when there is virtually no independent media in this country. All of it is for sale an controlled by big money interests. The only independent major outlet is under attack by Quebecor and I'm just waiting for the Fed to cut the funding to them.

2) Votes can also be adjusted.. Think Florida

1) Think Internet; the biggest independent media source in the world.

2) Florida was a screw-up, not something that happened by any sort of plan.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

1) Think Internet; the biggest independent media source in the world.

It might work in the future, but for now, the level of adoption as the primary tool for obtaining information is not there yet. Even when people use it to inform themselves, they still go to the major media outlets. Add Internet censorship to the mix, which is becoming stronger and stronger and it stops being such a great tool.

2) Florida was a screw-up, not something that happened by any sort of plan.

Of course. And RCMP Cpl Benjamin Robinson only drank AFTER he killed a motorcyclist

 

[invictus43]

Of course. And RCMP Cpl Benjamin Robinson only drank AFTER he killed a motorcyclist

I think you're giving the Bush clan too much credit!!

 

[mmmnaked]

Don't worry, the younger generations depend almost completely on internet for their news and media. The stuff you see on TV won't matter at all soon enough. Who sits down in the evening to watch news on TV? I'm catching current events from around the world on my phone thoughout the day. Chances are I know about stuff that's happening in Butt****istan about 4 hours before CBC does.

Get your news from an aggregator (google, for one) and you're golden. Take the time to weed through different sources when it comes to topics of interest and it's all good.

 

[imkruzen]

[video=youtube;OAOrT0OcHh0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0[/video]

 

[daught]

LOL at complaining about the clean up bill. It's nothing compared to what corporates are costing us now and what they will cost us in the future. Think of the BC oil industry for starters. I doubt any species went extinct because of the protesters.

 

[afong56]

really? we have footed the bill for a lot of other things too? no way.

what's the alternative?

what, me quote only part of someone's post to make myself sound clever without actually saying anything meaningful? no way.

what i call into question is the criticism of the cost for the occupiers cleanup. we the 99% pay a lot more for cleaning up corporate malfeasance than the pittance that a one day cleanup of one park in downtown toronto would cost. where's the pages of neo-con whinging about that?

Right: They make their point that we're footing the bill, for things we didn't want, by making us foot the bill for things we don't want. Bloody brilliant way to garner support for your position. Yes, that was sarcasm.

When we elect a government, to act on our collective behalf, we don't get to vote on every little thing. We do get to vote them out if they don't do what we elect them to though. Too bad that the theory and practise aren't congruent.

if that is the price of reasserting grassroots democracy, then so be it. small price to pay, when the alternative is the wholesale sellout of our system to corporation-driven, big party politics that sold their soul out to special interests a long time ago. the sheer fact that our system remains anchored to the dinosaur fpp electoral system is ample proof that our form of democracy is an abject failure.

1) Think Internet; the biggest independent media source in the world.

2) Florida was a screw-up, not something that happened by any sort of plan.

the internet???

no one can seriously point to the internet as a reliable, unbiased and independent form of media. any freedoms or independence we enjoy on the internet are tenuous at best. they could be gone in a flash. any claims of reliability are laughable, and to consider it to be unbiased is woefully naive.

and the last time i checked, the internet is nicely funneled in this country through a few providers with some resellers. big corporate interests. no one is running an isp in their garage.

 

[mmmnaked]

and the last time i checked, the internet is nicely funneled in this country through a few providers with some resellers. big corporate interests. no one is running an isp in their garage.

Are you implying that these big providers are restricting content? That's hilarious.

The internet is an unbiased resource in the sense that it contains ALL the information. How you seek that information out is your problem. All the major media and news sources from around the world are also represented on the internet. What you can find on TV and your local newspaper, you can also find on the internet.... and then 1000000x more.

 

[caboose56]

what, me quote only part of someone's post to make myself sound clever without actually saying anything meaningful? no way.

what i call into question is the criticism of the cost for the occupiers cleanup. we the 99% pay a lot more for cleaning up corporate malfeasance than the pittance that a one day cleanup of one park in downtown toronto would cost. where's the pages of neo-con whinging about that?

I asked a question.

What is the alternative?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Get your news from an aggregator (google, for one) and you're golden. Take the time to weed through different sources when it comes to topics of interest and it's all good.

Aggregators have been legislated into modifying search results in order to combat child pornography and piracy (that's how it starts). Others, like Bing, modify their search results to cockblock their competition (like LibreOffice). So they can be legislated or paid to block content that goes against certain interests. Sites have also been shut down without due process in the name of fighting piracy. Don't even get me started on Wiki Leaks. If your average citizen has to WORK to get unbiased information, he just won't.. He'll get his information from the convenient source.

Are you implying that these big providers are restricting content? That's hilarious.

As if they've never throttled p2p (torrents) They are the biggest opponents of net neutrality.

I asked a question.

What is the alternative?

It's something we need to work toward figuring out. Curling up in fetal position and repeating "everything's fine everything's fine" won't cut it.

 

[mmmnaked]

If throttling p2p file sharing is the most we have to worry about when it comes to internet openness I'll take it... and I've been with Rogers for ages, they never throttled. TekSavvy doesn't (seem) to either, so what's the fuss?

In backwards communist crapholes around the world, the internet is flat out restricted and censored. We don't have to contend with that. The information is out there, we just have to look for it. If you're lazy, watch CNN. If you're inquisitive about something you hear on the main stream media, at least check out what other mainstream media around the world has to say about it... cross reference a CNN story with CBC, BBC, Al-Jazeera, etc etc.

What I'm saying is that we have access to the info. That's really what counts. And the aggregators work wonderfully well. Any given topic or story has a thousand associated links to various media outlets writing about the same thing. We really do have it all.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

If throttling p2p file sharing is the most we have to worry about when it comes to internet openness I'll take it... and I've been with Rogers for ages, they never throttled. TekSavvy doesn't (seem) to either, so what's the fuss?

In backwards communist crapholes around the world, the internet is flat out restricted and censored. We don't have to contend with that. The information is out there, we just have to look for it. If you're lazy, watch CNN. If you're inquisitive about something you hear on the main stream media, at least check out what other mainstream media around the world has to say about it... cross reference a CNN story with CBC, BBC, Al-Jazeera, etc etc.

What I'm saying is that we have access to the info. That's really what counts. And the aggregators work wonderfully well. Any given topic or story has a thousand associated links to various media outlets writing about the same thing. We really do have it all.

rogers was caught throttling

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/10/25/technology-rogers-throttling-net-neutrality.html

with the laws the Conservatives are trying to enact will raise the costs of internet and and be far more intrusive on what we view on the internet.

telus in the past has out right blocked access to websites that were critical of telus.

bell traffic shapes as well

all three of them were making netflix and itunes unusable for a while (fancy that, bell and rogers have their own competing ppv video on demand services)

 

[Gummiente]

[video=youtube;OAOrT0OcHh0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0[/video]

That right there is the winning post in this thread.

 

[caboose56]

It's something we need to work toward figuring out. Curling up in fetal position and repeating "everything's fine everything's fine" won't cut it.

And in two months of Occupying exactly how much progress was made towards figuring something out? None. If anything I would say we are even farther from any type of solution now than we were at the onset of the Occupy protests. Their message was unclear, unfocused, vague and in some instances they even went so far as to alienate the very people they claimed to represent. Some seemed to want socialism (or even borderline communism) while others seemed to want libertarianism.

How do you address or satisfy the concerns of a group when their views and hopes are so extremely skewed?

 

[imnothng]

That right there is the winning post in this thread.

Yeah, I have to admit that I agree with most of what he said. About people spending 3 1/2 days out in the woods every year is a fantastic idea. Too many people nowadays I feel don't realize we are very close to that kind of living every day. If just the power grid, or the water, or the gas was to shut down, we'd all be living like that in no time flat. Too big to fail is a VERY dangerous way of thinking. I believe that we're too big NOT to fail now, it's just a matter of time.

I will disagree with what he said about thanking the corporations though. Yes they do provide a service that we all use and can't imagine life without. However, they are MORE than capable of doing these things without killing and enslaving most of the world.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

what, me quote only part of someone's post to make myself sound clever without actually saying anything meaningful? no way.

what i call into question is the criticism of the cost for the occupiers cleanup. we the 99% pay a lot more for cleaning up corporate malfeasance than the pittance that a one day cleanup of one park in downtown toronto would cost. where's the pages of neo-con whinging about that?

It's still money that the civic government doesn't have, for something that didn't need to be done. If I don't have money for rent, I don't go out for pizza.

if that is the price of reasserting grassroots democracy, then so be it. small price to pay, when the alternative is the wholesale sellout of our system to corporation-driven, big party politics that sold their soul out to special interests a long time ago. the sheer fact that our system remains anchored to the dinosaur fpp electoral system is ample proof that our form of democracy is an abject failure.

Given that we have a nominally free society you get a lot more done by working through the system, than you do by trying to go around it. You can even 'take over' the existing political parties, from within, if you care to get involved.

the internet???

no one can seriously point to the internet as a reliable, unbiased and independent form of media. any freedoms or independence we enjoy on the internet are tenuous at best. they could be gone in a flash. any claims of reliability are laughable, and to consider it to be unbiased is woefully naive.

and the last time i checked, the internet is nicely funneled in this country through a few providers with some resellers. big corporate interests. no one is running an isp in their garage.

Reliable? No. Virtually uncontrollable? Yes. One of the most repressive regimes in the world, China, has tried and failed to control the internet.

That right there is the winning post in this thread.

I agree with much of the sentiment in that video but, as with almost all such diatribes, he goes too far. You can have businesses, without having major multinationals.