Occupy Bay street

[FiReSTaRT]

You guys keep talking about 2500sq-ft houses but neglect to mention the fact that to afford even a house built 100 years ago, to different standards, your typical family needs a 35 year mortgage. Before, it used to be 15-20. Recently 25. Basically, you an your significant other have to slave away all your career in order to own your home.

 

[caboose56]

You guys keep talking about 2500sq-ft houses but neglect to mention the fact that to afford even a house built 100 years ago, to different standards, your typical family needs a 35 year mortgage. Before, it used to be 15-20. Recently 25. Basically, you an your significant other have to slave away all your career in order to own your home.

Housing prices are not dictated by builders or realtors. As with most things in our society they are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. Families are willing to pay stupid amounts of money for homes in certain parts of the GTA simply to be in certain parts of the GTA.

East Hamilton Mountain. Plenty of nice little areas up there and housing prices are significantly lower than other nearby areas. There are plenty of nice 3 bedroom homes in that area for under $250G. If two working adults need 35 years to pay off that mortgage they have other issues.

 

[Chaos]

I can't post something from Youtube at work but someone do a search for "Everythings Amazing But Nobody Is Happy" and post the link from the Conan show.

Watch that.. that about sums it up.

That's a great bit from Louis CK. He's a bright comic.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Housing prices are not dictated by builders or realtors. As with most things in our society they are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. Families are willing to pay stupid amounts of money for homes in certain parts of the GTA simply to be in certain parts of the GTA.

Families wouldn't need 35 years to pay off a house if the salaries on the job market kept up with the rate of inflation. They've been stagnating over the last 30-40 years or so. The only reason the average household income didn't slip AS MUCH is because there are more women in the workforce. So what's basically happening is that 2 people are working but receiving a single person's salary (adjusted for inflation).

Yes, there are some ridiculously expensive parts of the GTA, but the AVERAGE price of the dwellings still outpaced the salaries.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Families wouldn't need 35 years to pay off a house if the salaries on the job market kept up with the rate of inflation. They've been stagnating over the last 30-40 years or so. The only reason the average household income didn't slip AS MUCH is because there are more women in the workforce. So what's basically happening is that 2 people are working but receiving a single person's salary (adjusted for inflation).

Yes, there are some ridiculously expensive parts of the GTA, but the AVERAGE price of the dwellings still outpaced the salaries.

Move to Vancouver.

 

[nfq]

Brilliant: [video=youtube;8r1CZTLk-Gk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk[/video]

That's a great bit from Louis CK. He's a bright comic.

 

[caboose56]

Is the lumber, dirt and concrete in Windsor more expensve than the lumber, dirt and concrete in Toronto??

If not then why does the same house on the same lot cost twice as much in Toronto as it does in Windsor? Because people are willing to pay that much for it. The housing market in most areas of the GTA is utterly insane and inflation doesn't fully account for the current disparity between wages and housing costs. Housing prices are ultimately driven by the buyers... and it's the buyers who have driven it into the current cluster**** that it is. If you are upset that a certain size house in a certain neighbourhood requires two incomes and 35 years to pay for you have no one to blame except your neighbours. You can't compre salaries and housing costs the same way you can compare salaries and essentials like food and utilities.

It seems idiotic to me but actions speak louder than words. When millions and millions of people in the GTA make the choice to put themselves massively in debt for 30+ years that is their choice. Buying a home in Burlington for $450,000 instead of the same house on the Mountain in East Hamilton for $250,000 is their choice. If the general population was not willing to put themselves under a 35-year mountain of debt that requires two incomes........ then it wouldn't happen.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

You've been to Windsor, right? :lol:

 

[AdRath]

It seems idiotic to me but actions speak louder than words. When millions and millions of people in the GTA make the choice to put themselves massively in debt for 30+ years that is their choice. Buying a home in Burlington for $450,000 instead of the same house on the Mountain in East Hamilton for $250,000 is their choice. If the general population was not willing to put themselves under a 35-year mountain of debt that requires two incomes........ then it wouldn't happen.

Its not always that simple. I know for my wife and I we discussed it and after weighing the pro's and con's we decided to buy a house in Toronto. It was simply a matter of paying more so that we can see our children before they go to sleep at night. To me that is priceless and I made the choice and bought the more expensive house. Given all we have been through with kids getting sick and having to pick them up from childcare/school one of us if not both would have been fired for the amount of time we are forced to take off work to make the commute to get them. Again we made willful choices and bought a small fixer upper in a up and coming neighbourhood with lots of parks and a great school. When I think back to what it would have been like to commute from Hamilton I just shudder.

Is the lumber, dirt and concrete in Windsor more expensve than the lumber, dirt and concrete in Toronto??

Yes lumber and concrete are more expensive in Toronto. Along with lots of other services just because it costs more to do business here.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Its not always that simple.

Yes lumber and concrete are more expensive in Toronto.

If you're going to say someone else's statement is simple, you might want to make sure the next one you make isn't. How much more expensive? 1% more expensive vs. 100% more expensive is a BIG difference.

 

[AdRath]

If you're going to say someone else's statement is simple, you might want to make sure the next one you make isn't. How much more expensive? 1% more expensive vs. 100% more expensive is a BIG difference.

I said it wasn't that simple because I had first hand experience with making that decision. Feel free to correct my assertion that getting a cement truck to your house in Toronto costs more than getting a cement truck to your house in Windsor. You know its true and your just trying to be a dick. Feel free to reply with "It isn't that simple" and give details otherwise contribute something to the conversation rather then cherry picking sentences from peoples posts and not adding anything to the topic at hand.

He asked if it cost more and I said it did. I don't have the numbers at hand. Feel free to add them if you know them. My statement still stands. It does cost more to get many supplies in Toronto

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Feel free to correct my assertion that getting a cement truck to your house in Toronto costs more than getting a cement truck to your house in Windsor.

My statement still stands. It does cost more to get many supplies in Toronto

After the initial cost of the land, the next factor is the labour costs of the subcontractors. If you based your decision on the additional cost of getting materials to the site (which according to the 2 builders I was dealing with is negligible in the overall cost of the finished product) , you got bad advice.

 

[AdRath]

After the initial cost of the land, the next factor is the labour costs of the subcontractors. If you based your decision on the additional cost of getting materials to the site (which according to the 2 builders I was dealing with is negligible in the overall cost of the finished product) , you got bad advice.

I guess I was wrong after all. I will admit it. I guess I wasn't thinking in terms of total house and more per yard cost difference for a much smaller project. Your right maybe i called the wrong company. I've been thinking of pouring a driveway as I really really hate muddy gravel.

Although it looks like that is out the window as my furnace is on its last legs so my project next summer has changed to getting a new furnace and probably a tankless water heater while I'm at it but that is for another thread. lol

Your right about the land costs. Someone bought the house across the street for almost what I paid for mine with the intentions of tearing it down and building a new house from the foundation up (the house was condemed for leaning and having no foundation). What a funny market eh.

 

[Flashmonkey]

It seems idiotic to me but actions speak louder than words. When millions and millions of people in the GTA make the choice to put themselves massively in debt for 30+ years that is their choice. Buying a home in Burlington for $450,000 instead of the same house on the Mountain in East Hamilton for $250,000 is their choice. If the general population was not willing to put themselves under a 35-year mountain of debt that requires two incomes........ then it wouldn't happen.

This. You gotta factor in foreign buyers too. Some people land in Toronto and buy a bunch of expensive *** condos, which drives the prices right up. That's more or less the situation in Vancouver. LOL if you think housing prices are nutty in Toronto, you should see how much they go for in the Vancouver core.

Also, complaining about low wages in the private sector is all well and good but how the hell is that supposed to get fixed? Living within your means is as true today as it ever was. The only difference between the modern age and the great depression of the 30's is that there's more useless crap that you can blow your money on.

 

[AdRath]

The only difference between the modern age and the great depression of the 30's is that there's more useless crap that you can blow your money on.

I'd say the difference is that people back then banded together to demand a fair working wage rather than race each other to the bottom in order to make a select few wealthier than ever.

The raise in pay should match inflation at least. When the necessities of life are going up faster than your pay it can only continue for so long before we all end up at the bottom. I also feel taxes like HST shouldn't apply to food (not even talking about heavily processed junk but the basics) and home energy supplies. Those areas have been hit hard while everyone is at the same time being encouraged to take wage freezes or increases not matching inflation.

Of course I am not smart enough to know how to achieve this but this is my thoughts on 'how it should be'.

 

[caboose56]

The raise in pay should match inflation at least. When the necessities of life are going up faster than your pay it can only continue for so long before we all end up at the bottom. I also feel taxes like HST shouldn't apply to food (not even talking about heavily processed junk but the basics) and home energy supplies. Those areas have been hit hard while everyone is at the same time being encouraged to take wage freezes or increases not matching inflation.

Of course I am not smart enough to know how to achieve this but this is my thoughts on 'how it should be'.

I am pretty sure groceries are not taxed.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

I am pretty sure groceries are not taxed.

depends on the item. if it's prepared food it is, if it's considered junk food it is (pop, chips, chocolate), though not food tampons and maxipads are too.

 

[Flashmonkey]

I'd say the difference is that people back then banded together to demand a fair working wage rather than race each other to the bottom in order to make a select few wealthier than ever.

That's actually a good point too. HUGE difference in attitude between the generations.

We're all screwed LOL.

 

[daught]

I'd say the difference is that people back then banded together to demand a fair working wage rather than race each other to the bottom in order to make a select few wealthier than ever.

I find it pathetic when I hear. "You're an electrician, you should make less than me or have worse benefits than me". Cowards, rather than organizing and fighting for better compensation they rather wine and drag everyone down.

 

[AdRath]

I am pretty sure groceries are not taxed.

Ya your right. Shows how much of the family grocery shopping I do. I just assumed because HST seemed to apply to everything that it hit groceries also. You know what they say about assumptions.

That's actually a good point too. HUGE difference in attitude between the generations.

We're all screwed LOL.

It is astounding (and I have been guilty of it myself till I stopped and thought) how as a society instead of striving to improve we are trying to make sure anyone who has better wages or better benefits should lose them because other people don't have it as good. "If I don't have dental benefits then no one should" We are just playing into the hands of those who make massive profits on the backs of others.

In the end I really can't complain. Honestly I am probably over compensated for what I actually contribute to society (I make TV I mean really is that important?).

I have to thank Firestarter for getting my mind thinking as I too was caught up in the race to strip everyone who has anything better than me of what they have. It feels good to put the pitch fork down. lol See you all at the bottom with all wage earners making minimum wage without benefits! yeehaw!