Occupy Bay street | Page 31 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Occupy Bay street

Captain cliche to the rescue! Tell me More so I can plan for the future. Where are you hedging since you know what's happening in the world so well?

i see that once again, you have shared a post completely devoid of substance.
you must have learned from the tim hudak school of how to lose an election--use empty talking points, make weak attempts to discount the other side, while adding no real ideas of your own.

as for my supposed omniscience, if you bothered reading some of the links in this thread (and they're not even ones that i posted) then you'd know what i'm talking about.

until then, keep your head in the sand 'cause--like you--the view never changes, my friend.
 
Wandering back on topic ...

Took advantage of today's rally in response to the European so-called debt agreement to sell some call options that I'd previously bought at lower prices. My view on the european debt agreement is that it is largely only "kicking the can down the road" ... If you are forced to take a 50% haircut on a Greek government bond, are you ever going to buy a Greek government bond again??? ... but still, if it's a reason for a market rally, we'll take it. My way of protesting the way governments irresponsibly treat our money is to invest $0 in government bonds. Zip, zero, zilch.

You can work against the system ... or you can work with the system. Your call.

I am not entirely sure what the point of the "occupy Bay Street" crowd is. All I know is that I'm making money at both a real job and on investments while those clowns are doing whatever it is that they're doing (probably nothing).

interesting point on the "greek" debt crisis. while those eurozone countries are madly trying to prop up greece, the rest of the piigs are still faring no better. i agree, the haircut would push just about any investor away from gov't bonds.

what is interesting to see is: 1. what role china will play (and what price they'll extract), and 2. how greeks view their role in this crisis. if we want to talk about an occupy wall street movement, the average hellene is actively blaming the corporations/banks first, and their government next.
 

That's actually a pretty good shredding of the platitudes spouted by occupists.

There's only one thing that bothers me in what he wrote, which is saying that the capitalistic system works just fine after he just finished saying that corporate bailouts are wrong. He doesn't seem to think that there's any connection. In fact, if there hadn't been bailouts - as bad as they are, we would all be far, far worse off than we already are now.

The reality is that as long as companies that are too big to fail are allowed to exist, they will eventually require bailouts.
 

an interesting article.

i wonder how many people actually read it with a critical eye, or simply read the points that they agreed with and glossed the rest.

he brings up some good points:
--what people earn through hard work should be kept by them, and to redistribute that is unfair
--opposition to corporate greed should be focused and targeted
--government bailouts are wrong
--not all corporations are greedy (but there are plenty that are)

but he also fails to reconcile that:

--corporations don't really believe in capitalism like he does. one of the foundations of capitalism is the idea that competition is a key ingredient in its success. frankly, corporations thrive on monopoly and consolidation that prevents competition. if they could eliminate all competitors, they would, because competition affects their profitability, their bottom line.
--corporations cannot be trusted to make all of the decisions for society, because they don't have the best interests of all, at heart. they answer to shareholders.
--pure capitalism cannot be trusted to care for all members of society, a fact that is reflected in the existence of government regulation and controls, and varied levels of social welfare.
--claiming that his problems are not the fault of corporations ignores the depth and breadth of influence that corporate practices have, and the footprint that they leave on both physical and human resources around this planet. it's incredibly myopic to think that his life is unaffected by the actions of corporations and that they have had no impact on the 'problems' in his life.
--corporations don't always earn their profits through 'hard work'--quite often it is through exploitation, corruption, etc. i guess if we can turn a blind eye to the impact that we in the developed world have on those in the developing world, and can ignore the payoffs and paid political influence that drive their interests ahead of the interests of society, then we can accept the cruelties of unfettered corporatism.
 
That's actually a pretty good shredding of the platitudes spouted by occupists.

There's only one thing that bothers me in what he wrote, which is saying that the capitalistic system works just fine after he just finished saying that corporate bailouts are wrong. He doesn't seem to think that there's any connection. In fact, if there hadn't been bailouts - as bad as they are, we would all be far, far worse off than we already are now.

The reality is that as long as companies that are too big to fail are allowed to exist, they will eventually require bailouts.

Well the corporate bailouts aren't a part of an open capitalist system and more than a few people believe that the sort of thing that happened should have been allowed to run its course, as it permits the system to self-correct. If there are no real penalties to the people who caused the market crash, then there's no disincentive to doing it all over again.
 
That's actually a pretty good shredding of the platitudes spouted by occupists.

There's only one thing that bothers me in what he wrote, which is saying that the capitalistic system works just fine after he just finished saying that corporate bailouts are wrong. He doesn't seem to think that there's any connection. In fact, if there hadn't been bailouts - as bad as they are, we would all be far, far worse off than we already are now.

The reality is that as long as companies that are too big to fail are allowed to exist, they will eventually require bailouts.

The capitalist system does work fine he's saying the bailouts are wrong because bailouts are socialism not capitalism
 
That's actually a pretty good shredding of the platitudes spouted by occupists.

There's only one thing that bothers me in what he wrote, which is saying that the capitalistic system works just fine after he just finished saying that corporate bailouts are wrong. He doesn't seem to think that there's any connection. In fact, if there hadn't been bailouts - as bad as they are, we would all be far, far worse off than we already are now.

The reality is that as long as companies that are too big to fail are allowed to exist, they will eventually require bailouts.

agreed. pure capitalism failed in a big way and it was clear that some oversight, some regulation would have helped mitigate the severity of the financial crisis.

for example, time and again harper and flaherty took credit for the banking regulations that allowed canada to be on a stronger footing post 2008. it's pretty obvious to me that if the u.s. financial system was similarly regulated, things would have been very different.

furthermore, anyone who believes corporate greed on some level didn't form part of the trigger that ultimately led to the world-wide credit crisis is pretty naive, imho. how else do you explain the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the u.s.? or credit default swaps?

pure madness
 
agreed. pure capitalism failed in a big way and it was clear that some oversight, some regulation would have helped mitigate the severity of the financial crisis.

for example, time and again harper and flaherty took credit for the banking regulations that allowed canada to be on a stronger footing post 2008. it's pretty obvious to me that if the u.s. financial system was similarly regulated, things would have been very different.

furthermore, anyone who believes corporate greed on some level didn't form part of the trigger that ultimately led to the world-wide credit crisis is pretty naive, imho. how else do you explain the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the u.s.? or credit default swaps?

pure madness

The sub prime mess is explained by people taking mortgages they should never have taken or been approved for. And the credit default swaps were a financial genius who found a way to work within the regulations to make a ton of money, damn the consequences
 
I think we tend to focus too much on the big bad banks and capitalism than on the socialist aspect of the credit crisis. Relaxing the mortgage rules started as a way to help the poor buy homes (and was at one point championed and applauded by socialists). The banks found a way to make profit off of the relaxed rules, that is what they do. The relaxed rules in the end were bad for the banks and the poor. Making a bad set of regulations that mix socialism and capitalism was likely not the best idea, but we should not forget the socialist aspect, or history will repeat...
 
The capitalist system does work fine he's saying the bailouts are wrong because bailouts are socialism not capitalism

Socialism implies the government acting in the best interest of people.. This was more of an example of capitalist regulatory capture. Along the same lines as our telecom industry and the CRTC until the peasants picked up their torches and pitchforks just before federal elections.
 
Socialism implies the government acting in the best interest of people.. This was more of an example of capitalist regulatory capture. Along the same lines as our telecom industry and the CRTC until the peasants picked up their torches and pitchforks just before federal elections.

Well technically they were acting in the best interest of the people so the whole financial system didn't collapse and the much needed credit everyone lives on could still flow
 
Well technically they were acting in the best interest of the people so the whole financial system didn't collapse and the much needed credit everyone lives on could still flow

They acted in the short-term interest of the people and both short and long-term interest of the punks who created the situation in the first place, at the expense of the long-term interest of the people.
 
They acted in the short-term interest of the people and both short and long-term interest of the punks who created the situation in the first place, at the expense of the long-term interest of the people.

I think that when things had gone as far as they had, they did the only thing that they could. The criminally stupid move was to not attach things like compensation and bonus limits to the bailouts. It's just plain wrong that Wall Street went right back to the same sort of unsustainable compensation structure that was part of the original problem, using tax money to do it.
 
^^ +1 Totally agree. The way management gets paid (more so than the humongous amounts) was a big contributing factor to the crash. The bailout could have still been the same bailout, just with strings attached changing how people were to be paid from now on.

I don't think the govt. 'accidentally' missed that chance either. The managers, not the shareholders, write the big corporate cheques to the politicians - who make the laws.
 
Even just limiting how the bailout money could be used would have been smart without stating how things should work, going forward. NOT putting riders on it was monumentally dumb.
 
The criminally stupid move was to not attach things like compensation and bonus limits to the bailouts.

Not disagreeing with you on the point that the compensation system on wall street needs addressing, but just wanted to point out that execs at TARP recipient firms were subject to a compensation cap, had to have pay plans approved by the obama appointed "pay czar" keith feinberg, and were subject to mandatory "say on pay" votes a year before this became widespread in the US following dodd-frank.
 

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