November 1st- Happy World Vegan Day!

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mimico_polak said:
Thanks for keeping up my stereotype of smug vegans...I said before you do your thing and I'll respect that, and I ask the same from you. No need for snarky comments about my choices.
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Except your choices (and majority of society) affect much more than just you. That's like smoking in a room of non-smokers while asking for acceptance.

Animals don't get a choice in this, and the environment is at odds with your "personal choice"

I’m not trying to come off as “smug”, just making light of the fact that you’re pretending to be bullied into buying unethical products because of the big bad dairy farms and abattoirs. You still pay the salary ofsome pretty sick ****s.
 
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It doesn't take a lot of searching and reading to debunk the ethical justifications that many here use to justify veganism and even bully others, including environment aspects, animal welfare/sanctity, etc, etc.

The vegan diet deficiencies parts are well known but vegans have endlessly manipulated work-arounds. So if that part doesn't interest anyone, by all means focus on the other aspects such as environmental and animal rights discussions.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/why-vegan-diets-suck

http://www.nutritionsecrets.com/9-lies-vegans-love-telling/

http://empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy/

http://huntergatherer.com/prominent-vegan-advocate-22i-was-wrong-about-veganism-22/

http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetar...ally-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

This one below is a deep dive into the logical fallacies that vegans have used in the animal sanctity position. Excellent but not for many of the amateurs here who totally gloss over things in their thought processes.
https://theawl.com/if-god-wanted-us...-holes-in-vegan-logic-d77c8886fe47#.ozoc7dnfw

http://paleoleap.com/vegetarianism-bad-environment/

The paleo diet is the latest thing. More balanced than veganism and it meets the ethical/health/environmental wants/needs. Even still, it is not without debate and shortcomings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet

It isn't hard to find ethical or paleo meat, especially in Ontario.


By all mean go vegan. But there is no environmental or ethical justification for the diet.
 
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-D- said:
...skip the fries. I think the fries is what makes you feel bad after.
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I agree - it's the fries. I used to eat them with whatever burger I had, and always described to my son after eating how I got the McGurgles in my stomach - all bloated/gassy. Wanted to lose weight, so stopped going altogether, and made a bunch of other food choice changes. I've lost around 40 lbs, and my son wanted his monthly treat of McD's - I treated myself to just a burger and no McGurgles whatsoever. Granted that's just my experience, but their fries are off my 'can eat' list permanently.
 
sesamestreet said:
same reason I play violent video games but would never assault someone in real life.
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I have no interest in paintball, pretending to murder your friends.

Someone speculated that the popularity of Monopoly is based on the thrill one gets when wiping out their friends.
 
klr_guy said:
I agree - it's the fries. I used to eat them with whatever burger I had, and always described to my son after eating how I got the McGurgles in my stomach - all bloated/gassy. Wanted to lose weight, so stopped going altogether, and made a bunch of other food choice changes. I've lost around 40 lbs, and my son wanted his monthly treat of McD's - I treated myself to just a burger and no McGurgles whatsoever. Granted that's just my experience, but their fries are off my 'can eat' list permanently.
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T
The fries seem to clog you up and sits in upper gut...it doesn't go down easily.
Eating a few fries is ok imo (few=5 or so). When you tell yourself they are for taste and not the meal...seems to help.

That's great you dropped 40 lbs.
Way to go!!!

The easiest way to lose weight...don't gain it in the first place and nothing to lose in the 2nd place.
 
kwtoxman said:
By all mean go vegan. But there is no environmental, moral or ethical justification for the diet.
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I would argue that if we weren't pressured into overeating by various situations we could eliminate a lot of the concerns, real and perceived.

Farming / food is big business. It is driven by profit more than choice of lifestyle. Our veggies, eggs, meat don't come from gramma's farm.
 
sesamestreet said:
Except your choices (and majority of society) affect much more than just you. That's like smoking in a room of non-smokers while asking for acceptance.

Animals don't get a choice in this, and the environment is at odds with your "personal choice"

I’m not trying to come off as “smug”, just making light of the fact that you’re pretending to be bullied into buying unethical products because of the big bad dairy farms and abattoirs. You still pay the salary ofsome pretty sick ****s.
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W
Why do ppl keep caring about saving the planet?
As Carlin said, planet will be fine, been here for billions of years and will be here after.

Do you really believe you have control?
In Ontario we have drive clean and all the other things...yet in China and India they don't.
Canada has about 35 million ppl China and India have about 2.5 BILLION combined.
Don't you think we should be starting there or MOVE on to them as we have done more at this junction.

Climate change and food change is driven by them (or will be).

I hope all these vegan types are ALL getting cremated when they die...oh wait that would be using fossil fuels to burn them...unless you are using a pine box or dumped into the ocean then you have a left a problem in your wake (caskets that do not erode (safely)).

hmmm, business idea, drop dead bodies into volcanoes.
 
-D- said:
I hope all these vegan types are ALL getting cremated when they die...oh wait that would be using fossil fuels to burn them...unless you are using a pine box or dumped into the ocean then you have a left a problem in your wake (caskets that do not erode (safely)).
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Even then, unless you go with a natural burial location (only 4 officially recognized in Canada I think) you're still an "impact" on the environment. Embalming, the associated chems and that pine box, which in most cemeteries, is lowered into a concrete vault in the ground delay your return to the planet indefinitely.....


..... Why do I know this? lol

Conferences and "talks"; never know exactly what you're going to learn/hear.. Think Ted, but on a more local scale. This one was on the psychological aspects of death and disease, learning about common burial practices was a welcome surprise... Oh, and a bonus; natural is WAY cheaper.
 
Neil_V said:
Even then, unless you go with a natural burial location (only 4 officially recognized in Canada I think) you're still an "impact" on the environment. Embalming, the associated chems and that pine box, which in most cemeteries, is lowered into a concrete vault in the ground delay your return to the planet indefinitely.....
..... Why do I know this? lol
Conferences and "talks"; never know exactly what you're going to learn/hear.. Think Ted, but on a more local scale. This one was on the psychological aspects of death and disease, learning about common burial practices was a welcome surprise... Oh, and a bonus; natural is WAY cheaper.
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hmm
Would it be illegal if your family members took your body and tossed you into a volcano?
 
kwtoxman said:
It doesn't take a lot of searching and reading to debunk the moral and ethical justifications that many here use to justify veganism and even bully others, including environment aspects, animal welfare/sanctity, etc, etc.

The vegan diet deficiencies parts are well known but vegans have endlessly manipulated work-arounds. So if that part doesn't interest anyone, by all means focus on the other aspects such as environmental and animal rights discussions.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/why-vegan-diets-suck

http://www.nutritionsecrets.com/9-lies-vegans-love-telling/

http://empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy/

http://huntergatherer.com/prominent-vegan-advocate-22i-was-wrong-about-veganism-22/

http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetar...ally-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

This one below is a deep dive into the logical fallacies that vegans have used in the animal sanctity position. Excellent but not for many of the amateurs here who totally gloss over things in their thought processes.
https://theawl.com/if-god-wanted-us...-holes-in-vegan-logic-d77c8886fe47#.ozoc7dnfw

http://paleoleap.com/vegetarianism-bad-environment/

The paleo diet is the latest thing. More balanced than veganism and it meets the ethical/health/environmental wants/needs. Even still, it is not without debate and shortcomings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet

It isn't hard to find ethical or paleo meat, especially in Ontario.


By all mean go vegan. But there is no environmental, moral or ethical justification for the diet.
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LOL nice articles there..."why vegan diet sucks" :lmao:

so scientific and not biased at all written by paleo people.



Let me guess your next point: eating meat is traditionbecause that Maple Lodge farms commercial says so :lmao:


For you environmental impact deniers I’ll just leave thishere http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM





Also since you mention Canada has drive clean and all those “impactful”environmental initiatives, to that I say electric cars and CFL bulbs arenothing but red herrings to divert attention from the real issues.




 
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sesamestreet said:
LOL nice articles there..."why vegan diet sucks" :lmao:

so scientific and not biased at all written by paleo people.



Let me guess your next point: eating meat is traditionbecause that Maple Lodge farms commercial says so :lmao:
For you environmental impact deniers I’ll just leave thishere http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM





Also since you mention Canada has drive clean and all those “impactful”environmental initiatives, to that I say electric cars and CFL bulbs arenothing but red herrings to divert attention from the real issues.
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And most will likely agree with you on that point.
Do you really think the govt is in business for YOU, lol?

As for diets, there is now enough info out there that is easy to access.
If you are FAT and unhealthy then whatever you are eating is not working for you.
Maybe plant based is good for you but not for someone else.
As I recall, there was an old study done where they took Inuits/Eskimos and changed their diet away from blubber...within the year they had to go back because they started suffering from issues eating non Native food.

If someone doesn't know today in Canada that eating McD's everyday is bad for you and high sugar, fats, and no exercise is the way to go, then oh well, they pay the price.
You keep on keeping healthy, if someone asks how you do it then let them know.
 
There's lotta talk about health, but I'm no nutrition expert and so I don't talk about health, also because I never cared about health, whether vegan or Omni. I was obese throughout most of my childhood and teenage years because I just ate mcdonalds and pizza pockets and **** like that. I still eat all those types of foods without animal products. I rarely eat "healthy food" I actually hate most vegetables.

My my omni friend always asks how I eat so much without gaining weight, and how I have so much energy to be constantly occupied from 630am-2am every day. Will I crash someday? Maybe...but all these "health warnings" from armchair nutrition experts are just funny.


also smug accusations. I made a sarcastic comment to someone who pretty much put the blame on the industry to excuse their support for the industry. If no one else sees the hilarity in that then I can't help you!
 
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-D- said:
hmm
Would it be illegal if your family members took your body and tossed you into a volcano?
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Google Sky Burial.

*Graphic*
 
sesamestreet said:
LOL nice articles there..."why vegan diet sucks" :lmao:

so scientific and not biased at all written by paleo people.



Let me guess your next point: eating meat is traditionbecause that Maple Lodge farms commercial says so :lmao:


For you environmental impact deniers I’ll just leave thishere http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM





Also since you mention Canada has drive clean and all those “impactful”environmental initiatives, to that I say electric cars and CFL bulbs arenothing but red herrings to divert attention from the real issues.




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LOL. You really aren't helping yourself. I could tell that logic wasn't your strong point on this topic in past posts but this reply is impressively bad, even for such incredibly low standards. Off on tangents with multiple ad hominem and straw man fallacies, followed up with a long debunked report. Then commenting on a topic (drive clean) from someone else's post that is completely separate from what you quoted. What a hot mess.

Feedback on that FAO report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...law-in-report-on-meat-and-climate-change.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCwTME4qMkk
This video is long but very helpful.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/23/veggie_planet_saver_scheme_rubbished/

http://grist.org/article/2009-08-07-debunking-meat-climate-change-myth/

https://www.consumerfreedom.com/2012/06/can-consumers-win-liberation-from-the-mythical-long-shadow/

http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/meat_vs_miles.php

So, for context.....yes, there are global emissions from livestock production for food. However, the overall weight of evidence shows those emissions are much less than other types of global emissions. The youtube vid linked earlier and its conclusions at the end show that the US and Canada is a model to the world for food production while minimizing environmental impacts.

Yes big improvements can be made to our food production system. And if you want to do that, as I said before it isn't hard to find ethical or paleo meat, especially in Ontario.

Here's little tip for you and other black-and-white thinkers. Stop with the all the hasty generalization and red-herring fallacies. I highly doubt the links I posted are totally and absolutely correct in every way and detail. That's not the point. Get out of the weeds and stick with the main ideas and positions, otherwise it's a joke to even try to talk about it.

Again, be vegan by all means, but note there is no environmental or ethical justification for the diet over or omni or whatever.
 
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kwtoxman said:
Again, be vegan by all means, but note there is no environmental, moral or ethical justification for the diet over or omni or whatever.
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Right there's nothing moral or ethical about wanting to not contribute to the suffering of sentient creatures. A dictionary, buy one.
 
I'm not convinced...what about the millions of sentient animals that are born into a short life of misery to be slaughtered young. Every waking minute, fear, confusion, the sights, sounds and smells in a theatre of death. Animals are not dumb automatons, and it is well regarded among the scientific community that they are self aware. I don't think your understanding of morality and ethics is accurate. Especially if you don't condone that same type of treatment to companion animals. They all feel pain the same. Drawing a line in the sand won't change ****.

cows and pigs are as intelligent as dogs, if not more so. Puppy mills are bad, and so are slaughterhouses. It's really not a huge leap in logic as some would have you believe.
 
smc said:
Right there's nothing moral or ethical about wanting to not contribute to the suffering of sentient creatures. A dictionary, buy one.
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News flash, there is no black and white, like most things in life. So time for some remedial reading for you.

http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659
http://ruhlman.com/2012/05/why-its-ethical-to-eat-meat/
And don't continue to ignore the deep dive theawl article linked above.


It's a reality of life on this planet and for everyone and everything; sentient animals die all the time as food for other animals. It is the way of the world, ecology, food webs, trophic levels, etc. Sentient animals also die all the time in every type of food production including vegan foods. Suffering is a separate point. Though it is worthwhile to consider no matter what food you eat. Whether vegan or omni, it is reasonably important for many people to practice their food habits in a manner that minimizes suffering. And again here we are, one can eat meat ethically, and practice it in a manner that does not cause animals to unduly suffer.

I never said that our food system couldn't use some major improvement, both ethically and environmentally. And as I said multiple times, if you want to do better it isn't hard to find ethical or paleo meat, especially in Ontario. I have tried to do such for a while now (focus on non-processed meats, small producers/farms, local product, neighbourhood butchers, etc.). I garden as well, etc etc etc.
 
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You're right things aren't black and white. But in the west we are faced with a choice everyday and unfortunately an overwhelming majority choose to cause suffering but that's quickly changing. We don't live in a barren landscape where we all need to hunt, we get produce trucked in from all over the world. Then we get into how resource intensive livestock farming is and how those resources could be better used, and there really is no moral justification for any of it.

animals die as prey to other animals, but those animals don't employ the same type of moral reasoning humans do. It's useless to compare. Also, lions don't hunt zebras while petting an antelope... Mental gymnastics of that caliber can only be observed in human logic.
 
Also dude...one of your linked articles is written by a sous vide chef...All of a sudden turned philosopher on why it's ethical to eat meat... :lmao: that's gold

i don't know how it's not glaringly obvious to you that these people write this bogus **** because their way of life and livelihood is being attacked as more people turn away from consuming animal products. Of course a meat-centric chef and some paleo nut jobs are going to write defending their "ethical" stance to eat meat.

You should see the amount of articles being written by industry magazines crying victim, even seen one about the sentience of plants :lmao:

The vegan threat is real, lads!
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