Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

[Rob MacLennan]

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Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

And you may be right there. I think Ford will get some transit stuff done. I think it will be helpful but maybe not the right things that should get done. I don't particularly think the Sheppard subway was the right thing..but the politicians will meddle. The Province I think will give money but it wants to know, I think, that it will be used effectively.

Here's a tidbit..the New York Mass Transit Authority only recovers 42% of its costs at the fare box. So the citizens are effectively being taxed for teh other 58%. How would that go over here? I have no idea what the TTC subsidy rate it..probably less than NY/MTA..but will people pay more on their taxes for it?? Dunno..

Virtually nothing, by comparison: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/585571

 

[CruisnGrrl]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Motorcycle parking fee exemption is gravy. It was a nice gesture by the city but they didn't have to do it 5 years ago. Before the paper receipt machines were widely used, we still had to pay for parking with the coin meters and no one complained about paying for parking. Hey, I've saved hundreds of dollars for the past 5 years, that's not bad in my books. Sure I wish it would continue but if council votes it gone, so be it.

even bigger gravy is the overtime and time paid but not giving out tickets that the meter maids and traffic officers will enjoy when there's a rush to fight tickets given out when parking was paid for.

I suspect something like this could happen... you could have a number of bikes, parked 10 feet apart on multiple streets in area's all across toronto, all paid for parking but their display tags have all "blown away". Imagine how many legitimate tickets would be qualifying for 11b, imagine how much money would be spent and lost on the issuing officer being in court instead of handing out tickets. It's a crying shame. Specially if this happened once a day for a month.

 

[Face]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Rob, you are right about the 2/3 vote to waive notice & waive referral to Committee, but I'm not sure exactly what that means as the recommendations before Council are to report back on options for implementation & enforcement, not for a specific by-law amendment. I've spoken with the Clerks Department & will hopefully get clerification about the implications of the 2/3 vote. I'll post as soon as I find out (if they call me back)!

In the mean time, everyone should e-mail their Councillors a.s.a.p. so hopefully they will at least refer it to staff, if not refuse it all together!

I've just spoken with the Clerk's department and the 2/3 votes, if approved will only implement the recommendations to study & report back. It would not pass a by-law today! If they are not approved, the motion would get a public notice and be heard by the next Works & Transportation Committee, where the public can speak to it. This item has not been heard by Council yet, and people can e-mail the Clerks department right now, and they will bring the e-mails to the attention of Council members. The e-mail address is clerk@toronto.ca Let's at least try to get the 2/3rds votes defeated so that we can speak to Committee and hopefully encourage them to not waste staff's time on this whole silly exercise. The Clerk's Department will be looking out for our e-mails!

 

[CruisnGrrl]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

"Abuse of process" can get you a pretty nasty suit, in response, so I wouldn't recommend advertising your intentions

Oh understood, I wouldn't say I intended to use the courts to waste the counsellor's time, i'd be serious in recouping costs incurred fighting needless tickets that they are a direct result of causing, but the fact that their time is wasted is an acceptable outcome, especially if you have 1000 people doing it. You may not be able to fight city hall, but you can throw a monkey wrench into the works.

 

[K13GT]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Here is a copy of the email I sent to my Councillor earlier today (in case anyone want to use part or all to contact their Councillor).

I also forwarded my original email to the Clerk.

Dear Councillor ---, Ward ##:

I understand that Councillors will be voting on Nov.30 on a motion to rescind free parking for motorcycles and scooters.

I disagree with the motion on 4 key points:

1. There is no way to secure a parking receipt to a motorcycle or scooter. It can blow away or be stolen.

2. Motorcycles & scooters take up less space than cars: 5-7 motorcycles/ scooters can fit a standard parking spot.

3. Motorcycles & scooters can park in areas that are too small for cars.

4. Motorcycles & scooters are a more efficient means of traveling around the City. They place significantly less demand on the City's infrastructure.

Toronto's infrastructure cannot cope with the volume of cars currently. Commuters should be encouraged to leave their cars at home and use alternatives: motorcycles/ scooters, bicycles, TTC, etc.

With the planned service cuts to the TTC, and delayed system expansion, the motion is even more of an issue. The TTC is currently at capacity most hours of the day. We need other economical options for commuting.

Please vote against the motion.

However, if this motion is passed and motorcycles/ scooters are made to pay the same amount for parking that cars do, I will be sure to occupy a one full parking spot with one motorcycle. That will result in additional congestion for car drivers.

Regards,

------

Ward ##

 

[Face]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

I've just spoken with the Clerk's department and the 2/3 votes, if approved will only implement the recommendations to study & report back. It would not pass a by-law today! If they are not approved, the motion would get a public notice and be heard by the next Works & Transportation Committee, where the public can speak to it. This item has not been heard by Council yet, and people can e-mail the Clerks department right now, and they will bring the e-mails to the attention of Council members. The e-mail address is clerk@toronto.ca Let's at least try to get the 2/3rds votes defeated so that we can speak to Committee and hopefully encourage them to not waste staff's time on this whole silly exercise. The Clerk's Department will be looking out for our e-mails!

Here is my e-mail to Council. Feel free to use as you see fit.
"Dear Councillors,

I understand that a Notice without Motion MM14.19 is before Council to study rescinding free for motorcycle & scooter parking on public streets. It also appears from the 2/3 vote provisions, that this motion could move forward without public notice and consultation, and without input from staff and Public Works & Infrastructure Committee.

I would ask Council to not support the 2/3 requirements to waive public notice and consideration by Committee. The press has only got wind of this today. Even with minor public awareness of this motion, considerable concern has been generated within the motorcycle and scooter community, and we feel it is important that the public be able to address the recommendations being brought forward by Councillor Del Grande. His recommendation is that staff study and report on this over the Christmas holidays when people are otherwise busy, and the motorcycle and scooter community is least active. We would like the opportunity to speak to Committee, to hopefully convince them of the fruitlessness of this motion, but at least to ensure a fair consultative process through the summer months when the motorcycle and scooter community is most active.

The issues are far more complex than Councillor Del Grande’s motion indicates, and it would be unfair of Council to pass this motion without directing staff to look at the full scope of the issue. As such, I would humbly ask that Council vote against waiving notice and allow public discussion of this motion at Committee

Regards,

 

[StudioCycleGroup]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

The CBC van was here. They filmed a clip. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the councilors are listening.





I believe Edward was also on the radio last night or this morning. Let's keep working on this together. Lots of great initiatives in previous posts.

 

[kiwi]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

I've just spoken with the Clerk's department and the 2/3 votes, if approved will only implement the recommendations to study & report back. It would not pass a by-law today! If they are not approved, the motion would get a public notice and be heard by the next Works & Transportation Committee, where the public can speak to it. This item has not been heard by Council yet, and people can e-mail the Clerks department right now, and they will bring the e-mails to the attention of Council members. The e-mail address is clerk@toronto.ca Let's at least try to get the 2/3rds votes defeated so that we can speak to Committee and hopefully encourage them to not waste staff's time on this whole silly exercise. The Clerk's Department will be looking out for our e-mails!

my councilor received my email.

I just emailed clerk@toronto.ca

thanks

 

[butters]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

I believe there would be a great amount of these bikes listed on Craigslist asap.

So if commuting on the bike is not viable anymore than many will either sell their bikes or just have sitting at home. Now selling these bikes will have an adverse effect on the whole economy as well. Dealers will suffer as well as other vendors that cater to the motorcycle community. I don't think all the downtown bikers will hop into the cage and drive in, I won't cause the extra cost, (car guzzles more than a bike plus oil changes and maintenance on car is more and will be more often than if you drive into downtown).

So many will just take the TTC which will help the city. Rather than making it more attractive and going green Ford Nation is doing well with their agenda of less-green and pro car. The cagers will definitely be more happier if this goes through, more parking spots and less bikes whizzing around them.

Yin and Yang, if what you think is true then after '06 there was a surge of bike purchases and dealerships saw a marked increase in sales and service because of free DT parking..........I don't think so.

Nothing will change and there WILL NOT be rush of sellers to craigslist....NOTHING WILL CHANGE in the industry. This is something that motorcyclists parking in the core have enjoyed since '06 but I never believed it was a permanent thing. As soon as the city could figure out how to keep the receipts on bikes from getting stolen or blowing away it was going to happen and bikes would start paying again like they've always done since before '06.

Cars do use more gas per KM than a bike but oil changes for cars are much cheaper to have done in a shop. Full tune-ups for cars are much cheaper to have done in a shop. A bike can be as cheap or less than a car if you start to learn to do your own maintenance but you're talking about lost business for shops not DIYers.

Mythbusters just recently tested "Motorcycles are greener" and based on a lot of replies here there will be lots of shocked riders here with one less argument to stand on.

 

[kiwi]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Update from the Council website:

MM14.19
(New)
Fees for Motorcycle Parking - by Councillor Mike Del Grande, seconded by Councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam (Ward All) URGENT

* Notice of this Motion has not been given. A two-thirds vote is required to waive notice.
* This Motion is subject to referral to the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee. A two-thirds vote is required to waive referral.
* This item has been deemed urgent by the Chair.

 

[kiwi]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

BTW - to those who say "...but what can we do" "doesnt make difference"

You people are the face of Apathy. Voices do make a difference. Look at the CRTC ruling this year being retracted. Canadians (or is Ontarioians??) love to complain and sit on their arses and do nothing or hope others will do something.

At least I can say *I* tried.

 

[AdRath]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Yin and Yang, if what you think is true then after '06 there was a surge of bike purchases and dealerships saw a marked increase in sales and service because of free DT parking..........I don't think so.

I disagree. I have gone from seeing only a few scooter to now every street has scooters all over the place. The scooter industry has exploded since 2006 and a lot has to do with free parking making it a very economical way to commute within the city.

 

[awyala]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Motorcycle parking fee exemption is gravy. It was a nice gesture by the city but they didn't have to do it 5 years ago. Before the paper receipt machines were widely used, we still had to pay for parking with the coin meters and no one complained about paying for parking. Hey, I've saved hundreds of dollars for the past 5 years, that's not bad in my books. Sure I wish it would continue but if council votes it gone, so be it.

Have you also not witnessed the explosion of two wheel commuters since then? Watch that be reversed as we retreat to our confortable winterized cultured cages. I certainly won't be braving the cold in October, November and December, March, or April nor sweating my balls off in July and August so I can pay $20 a day. I'll be taking up a full parking space, guzzling fuel and climate regulating all the way to work and back through gridlock with in car entertainment and plenty of storage space and 3 empty car seats.

As I say, Toronto is a shambles to be bogged down under a 2.5 million population. And if it wants to brag about being a cosmopolitan global player and inflate its numbers to 5.9 million, which is still regional by any standards, then Toronto cannot dismiss the claims and rights of the outlying GTA regions.

If these councellors don't heed the advice of 905'ers, Toronto really is a small time dinky city that has proven its transit system is Yankee class and Toronto has more than likely reached it's peak size....as a little Canadian backwater. As the East rises....count the days to irrelevence and infrustructure break down a la Montreal. Even emalgamation was a joke, hahahaha, the "Mega City"!!! How absurd as they choke over current congestion.

Well it is what it is I guess, a provincial town immitating the big world players, like kids with an easy bake oven.

 

[johnp]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

here's the email I sent to Rob Ford, probably the wrong person to send to:

"I understand that Toronto is considering to
end the free parking for motorbikes.

Please keep this benefit since:

[1] motorbikes consume less fuel than cars.
[2] motorbikes take up less than a full parking spot, i.e. 3 bikes can
park in spot for one car.
[3] motorbikes on the road replace cars on the road and result in less
traffic congestion.
[4] free parking for motorbikes has been in place since 2005 and
motorists have made decisions based on this e.g. bought motorscooters.
[5] making it more expensive to go downtown will be harmful for
downtown businesses.

Thanks for your careful consideration."

 

[Veej]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Yin and Yang, if what you think is true then after '06 there was a surge of bike purchases and dealerships saw a marked increase in sales and service because of free DT parking..........I don't think so.

Nothing will change and there WILL NOT be rush of sellers to craigslist....NOTHING WILL CHANGE in the industry. This is something that motorcyclists parking in the core have enjoyed since '06 but I never believed it was a permanent thing. As soon as the city could figure out how to keep the receipts on bikes from getting stolen or blowing away it was going to happen and bikes would start paying again like they've always done since before '06.

Cars do use more gas per KM than a bike but oil changes for cars are much cheaper to have done in a shop. Full tune-ups for cars are much cheaper to have done in a shop. A bike can be as cheap or less than a car if you start to learn to do your own maintenance but you're talking about lost business for shops not DIYers.

Mythbusters just recently tested "Motorcycles are greener" and based on a lot of replies here there will be lots of shocked riders here with one less argument to stand on.

So that line up of bikes on front St. will continue you think? Do you really think all those people will be around $20 per day to ride in from 10 minutes away or even an hour away (like me). In my office I just asked the only other guy who rides in and right away he said he won't pay that much to ride in and park.

I do seriously think the bikes in downtown core have increased after 2005, I've been working here since 2005 and every year I notice an increase in motorbikes and scooter riders all around. Even in our office I know a few whom in the last 2 years have gotten into riding because the attractiveness of free parking.

C'mon $400 bills a month is a large amount to shell out, add that to a year your looking at $2000 even if you ride 6 months.

 

[awyala]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Yeah but you're putting the cart before the horse, as many do with transit. Hong Kong has great transit because they have no option! It's profitable and works because they have ridership. Same with New York. They quote 75% of people in Manhattan not having a car..how could they! Have you been to Manhattan?? You can't drive anywhere because of congestion. Same with Hong Kong. People can still drive around Toronto, maybe not as quickly as they'd like, but it's functional. It's not too late..they're getting more transit in place. Chicago had MANY rail lines that they've used for transit, not just the El. They built the El because it was the cheapest way. And I don't believe any of the Chicago transit systems actually make money. Seriously, you can't just throw money away..there has to be some kind of return on investment, however you measure that.

Ever hear of the London congestion charge? Hmmmm even with infrastructure it generated £25million in proffit for the private company running it in the first ****ing year!!! Next year over £40 million is proffit. Who was exempt? That's right, e-cars and motorcycles!!!!!! Parking was also free (only 1 borough changed that to implement £1 flat rate parking charged via texting). The rest of the umpteen boroughs all have free parking bays for motorcycles!

If you want to generate money for a transit system and reduce congestion....the absolute dead wrong target is the low emissions low volume vehicle!!!!

By the way, their annual car / road tax was changed from a £60 annual flat rate to a sliding scale based on engine size. Under 1L cars were exempt from road / car tax. Big SUV's and Lambos? You guessed it....increased tax!

Once again a case of Toronto doing a piss poor job of immitating other cities while it falls behind the curve. London is coping with low figures of 8million people and high estimates (with commuters) in the ball park of 11 to 12 million.

From experience Toronto gridlock is approaching the same times and that is in a city that is on a grid system compared to a radial grid (which doesn't promote cross town traffic)!!! That is simply absurd an old ring road system where major routes converge at a high density nexus and dont offer cross town alternatives (with NO INNER CITY HIGHWAYS) now has similar congestion to a modern grid system with cross town and inner city highways!!!!

Complete failure on Toronto's part and charging motorcycles is a complete smoke screen.

PS, the congestion charge was £5 it's first year, then raised to £8 the next year. Still free for motorcycles! If you fail to pay by the next morning the charge goes to £10. If you weren't aware you entered the zone, or only entered it for a moment and quickly got out and forgot to pay, £50 fine!!! Go look at a map of London's transit system. Their bus map is even more impressive!!! Some tunnels were dug, early tunnels were trenches then covered over. You're telling me, the leading Canadian city aligned closely to the leading global super power, at the height of its power and wealth cannot foreward plan a transit system for 5 to 10 million people? Really? If not, then Toronto seriously missed the boat in the boom of the last 10 years and this city will stagnate like Montreal or Buffalo. We will never be a global player, let's just drop the act now and accept our fate. We may as well be a Pitsburg, Cincinati, Portland or Mineapolis of this world. Hell maybe that is our true potential....but let's cut the ****....we aren't global leaders. Toronto can take a direction for a better future but measures like this suggest it is happy to settle for being mediocre.

No one looks to Toronto for anything anymore....except maybe some mild foreign investment in a condo property bubble. This city is the last stop on the immigrant train...people come here to get away from excitement and settle into a humdrum 2 car garage lifestyle. Vibrant hmmmmm....we have potential, but like our new pronvincial class opera house we also know how to squander it!!!

 

[invictus43]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Complete failure on Toronto's part and charging motorcycles is a complete smoke screen.

I agree. Now make the other 97% of people who don't ride motorcycles to agree with you!!

 

[Roasted]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

So that line up of bikes on front St. will continue you think? Do you really think all those people will be around $20 per day to ride in from 10 minutes away or even an hour away (like me). In my office I just asked the only other guy who rides in and right away he said he won't pay that much to ride in and park.

I do seriously think the bikes in downtown core have increased after 2005, I've been working here since 2005 and every year I notice an increase in motorbikes and scooter riders all around. Even in our office I know a few whom in the last 2 years have gotten into riding because the attractiveness of free parking.

C'mon $400 bills a month is a large amount to shell out, add that to a year your looking at $2000 even if you ride 6 months.

I've been commuting daily on my bike to work for 3 years from mississauga...this year not really as my bike was out of commission for the majority of the season. Would I keep riding to work from mississauga if I had to pay for parking? I'm not sure.

I now live in Etobicoke literally steps from a subway station. Will I commute to work on my bike now if I have to pay for parking. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

[invictus43]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

At least I can say *I* tried.

Well GOOD FOR YOU!!!

 

[invictus43]

Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

I now live in Etobicoke literally steps from a subway station. Will I commute to work on my bike now if I have to pay for parking. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Yeah, but you'll take the subway. Transit is probably faster, more convenient and maybe even cheaper for you and that's one less car on the road. That's the way it should be.

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