Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

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Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Hal Incandenza said:
lol.. if you heard Paris or New York or London described as vibrant I think most people would totally agree.. but somehow Canadians don't deserve great cities? heck, think Montreal in the 70s.. since when are we second class? And $8 billion is pretty much how much we had on the table, through city/provincial/federal cooperation.. it's not just about numbers, it's also about leadership..
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"Vibrant city" is just such a cliche that I read over and over again whenever I read a consultant report. Ugh.. I quoted $8billion because that was the number being kicked around. But it is about the numbers..nobody wants to give money away..it has to make sense. In the meantime, while the City and Province and Feds dither, Toronto is grabbing some cash in a fairly easily justified (in their mind) way.

Toronto has one of the least-subsidized, well-used transit systems in North America. Let's not turn it into the LA transit system..
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Rob MacLennan said:
How about New York City which not only has a much more widespread transit system, but charges a far lower cost for it.
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It's more heavily subsidized and...drum-roll.....has higher density!! :-) The TTC could make money on the subway and downtown area. But it still has to pay for all those buses out in nowhere land with low ridership. Boston and Chicago also have fair transit systems. But they have density too.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

topendz said:
Unfortunately your attitude is the same as many Canadians, we silently complain yet do nothing and wonder why we constantly get abused.
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I don't think he's complaining..
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

invictus43 said:
..you want a subway..you need $8billion to get that done. Where are you going for that money? Seriously...
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wait, so you're suggesting that the city raise $8 billion for a subway from revenue generated by motorcycle parking fees?? :lmao:
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

tricky said:
Just read through the thread, this is the first time I've heard about this and it SUCKS. Free parking for us was one of those little bonuses that made motorcycling just a little sweeter.

I'm getting a funny mental picture of every bike at the major parking hotspots (Bay & Front, Elm st, etc) all taking up 1 spot. On a good day, I've seen 15 or so bikes on Elm all neatly parked in a few spaces. Now imagine them all lined up, end to end haha The city would freak out after a month of that every day:lmao:
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Yeah..all 15 of them..
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

topendz said:
if people didn't speak out and fight for things the world would be an even worse place than it is now.
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I find it ironic that free bike parking was never a cause initiated by motorcyclists. It wasn't even a motorcycling interest group that came up with the idea, it was one lone councillor. We got lucky and that luck just ran out.
 
topendz said:
I mean no offense but that defeatest attitude will never get anyone anywhere, if people didn't speak out and fight for things the world would be an even worse place than it is now. Sure in the grand scheme of things this is small but if it's easy to take one thing away it will be easy to take another and another. Unfortunately your attitude is the same as many Canadians, we silently complain yet do nothing and wonder why we constantly get abused. Oh and by the way I get free bike parking so this doesn't impact me if I want to take the selfish approach, but I ride so I should speak for everyone. Just my 2 cents.
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My exact thoughts. People here tend to allow themselves to be pushed around.
This country is all about taxes... And we have the gall to laugh at the Americans for being sheeple.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

BusaBob said:
wait, so you're suggesting that the city raise $8 billion for a subway from revenue generated by motorcycle parking fees?? :lmao:
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:-) Now Bob.. I was referring to the transit talk. Stay on target! I'm saying the city can't raise $8 billion no how. And in the meantime, when the budget isn't balancing, they're looking for cash. And motorcyclists aren't a big election problem. So they're taking the easy road, so to speak...
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

invictus43 said:
It's more heavily subsidized and...drum-roll.....has higher density!! :-) The TTC could make money on the subway and downtown area. But it still has to pay for all those buses out in nowhere land with low ridership. Boston and Chicago also have fair transit systems. But they have density too.
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You asked for one, so I gave you one. If you want more, then it's an extremely quick internet search away.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.co...five-best-mass-transit-systems-worldwide/1095

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/10-best-cities-for-public-transportation

Note that Toronto doesn't figure in that world listing. We used to, back when I was a kid.

The population of Chicago, proper, is smaller than that of the City of Toronto. (EDIT: Actually about 100K more in Chicago than Toronto). Population density can actually work against effective mass transit, after a certain point, because you have nowhere to run your lines. That's why Chicago has the EL-Train.
 
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Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Rob MacLennan said:
Don't forget the section, of that recommendation, that specifies skipping Start and going directly to jail, if they get more than a 2/3 majority vote in favour.
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Rob, you are right about the 2/3 vote to waive notice & waive referral to Committee, but I'm not sure exactly what that means as the recommendations before Council are to report back on options for implementation & enforcement, not for a specific by-law amendment. I've spoken with the Clerks Department & will hopefully get clerification about the implications of the 2/3 vote. I'll post as soon as I find out (if they call me back)!

In the mean time, everyone should e-mail their Councillors a.s.a.p. so hopefully they will at least refer it to staff, if not refuse it all together!
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Rob MacLennan said:
You asked for one, so I gave you one. If you want more, then it's an extremely quick internet search away.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.co...five-best-mass-transit-systems-worldwide/1095

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/10-best-cities-for-public-transportation

Note that Toronto doesn't figure in that world listing. We used to, back when I was a kid.

The population of Chicago, proper, is smaller than that of the City of Toronto. Population density can actually work against effective mass transit, after a certain point, because you have nowhere to run your lines. That's why Chicago has the EL-Train.
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Yeah but you're putting the cart before the horse, as many do with transit. Hong Kong has great transit because they have no option! It's profitable and works because they have ridership. Same with New York. They quote 75% of people in Manhattan not having a car..how could they! Have you been to Manhattan?? You can't drive anywhere because of congestion. Same with Hong Kong. People can still drive around Toronto, maybe not as quickly as they'd like, but it's functional. It's not too late..they're getting more transit in place. Chicago had MANY rail lines that they've used for transit, not just the El. They built the El because it was the cheapest way. And I don't believe any of the Chicago transit systems actually make money. Seriously, you can't just throw money away..there has to be some kind of return on investment, however you measure that.
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Face said:
Rob, you are right about the 2/3 vote to waive notice & waive referral to Committee, but I'm not sure exactly what that means as the recommendations before Council are to report back on options for implementation & enforcement, not for a specific by-law amendment. I've spoken with the Clerks Department & will hopefully get clerification about the implications of the 2/3 vote. I'll post as soon as I find out (if they call me back)!

In the mean time, everyone should e-mail their Councillors a.s.a.p. so hopefully they will at least refer it to staff, if not refuse it all together!
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The way that it's written makes me think that if it passes with the stated margin, then free motorcycle parking is effectively dead in Toronto, leaving only the method of its execution to be determined.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

tricky said:
You are suggesting the city won't care at all if every parking hotspot is filled by a few motorcycles?
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I'm suggesting that whatever you do, motorcycle parking is a drop in the bucket of total parking revenue and your ability to take up spots selfishly won't make any difference. But carry on..
 
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Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

invictus43 said:
Yeah but you're putting the cart before the horse, as many do with transit. Hong Kong has great transit because they have no option! It's profitable and works because they have ridership. Same with New York. They quote 75% of people in Manhattan not having a car..how could they! Have you been to Manhattan?? You can't drive anywhere because of congestion. Same with Hong Kong. People can still drive around Toronto, maybe not as quickly as they'd like, but it's functional. It's not too late..they're getting more transit in place. Chicago had MANY rail lines that they've used for transit, not just the El. They built the El because it was the cheapest way. And I don't believe any of the Chicago transit systems actually make money. Seriously, you can't just throw money away..there has to be some kind of return on investment, however you measure that.
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They didn't start with that level of ridership, nor with that population density. They had plans and implemented them, before they were completely screwed. How long before Toronto is completely screwed and has no way out, because people fail to take the long view?
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Rob MacLennan said:
They didn't start with that level of ridership, nor with that population density. They had plans and implemented them, before they were completely screwed. How long before Toronto is completely screwed and has no way out, because people fail to take the long view?
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And they didn't start out with that level of transit infrastructure. You build as you go. LA built a subway/rail system that nobody uses. I suppose one day they might.. Very few North American cities have the demand for transit to make it profitable. Part of that is it's too easy to drive. Transit has to 2 of: cheaper, faster, more convenient. A lot of times it just isn't They'll always have a way out. It's not anymore difficult to tunnel under Eglinton now than it was 30 years ago when they first did the construction drawings. Toronto is far from screwed. They do need less political meddling though, that's for sure.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Rob MacLennan said:
They didn't start with that level of ridership, nor with that population density. They had plans and implemented them, before they were completely screwed. How long before Toronto is completely screwed and has no way out, because people fail to take the long view?
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Maybe Ford's strive toward complete car gridlock will have a positive effect in the end. It has to get really bad before people wake up and hopefully it isn't too late.

In my opinion Ford is fighting the wrong fight. Rather than trying to wring every penny out of the citizens (and I do agree we need a property tax raise as much as I hate it) he should take his barn storming show to the province to claw back some of that massive amount of money Toronto sends out but doesn't receive back in services. Its time the dying profit engine of Ontario got some needed TLC or very bad things are coming down the road for everyone in Ontario.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

AdRath said:
Maybe Ford's strive toward complete car gridlock will have a positive effect in the end. It has to get really bad before people wake up and hopefully it isn't too late.

In my opinion Ford is fighting the wrong fight. Rather than trying to wring every penny out of the citizens (and I do agree we need a property tax raise as much as I hate it) he should take his barn storming show to the province to claw back some of that massive amount of money Toronto sends out but doesn't receive back in services. Its time the dying profit engine of Ontario got some needed TLC or very bad things are coming down the road for everyone in Ontario.
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And you may be right there. I think Ford will get some transit stuff done. I think it will be helpful but maybe not the right things that should get done. I don't particularly think the Sheppard subway was the right thing..but the politicians will meddle. The Province I think will give money but it wants to know, I think, that it will be used effectively.

Here's a tidbit..the New York Mass Transit Authority only recovers 42% of its costs at the fare box. So the citizens are effectively being taxed for teh other 58%. How would that go over here? I have no idea what the TTC subsidy rate it..probably less than NY/MTA..but will people pay more on their taxes for it?? Dunno..
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

invictus43 said:
And they didn't start out with that level of transit infrastructure. You build as you go. LA built a subway/rail system that nobody uses. I suppose one day they might.. Very few North American cities have the demand for transit to make it profitable. Part of that is it's too easy to drive. Transit has to 2 of: cheaper, faster, more convenient. A lot of times it just isn't They'll always have a way out. It's not anymore difficult to tunnel under Eglinton now than it was 30 years ago when they first did the construction drawings. Toronto is far from screwed. They do need less political meddling though, that's for sure.
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And we pretty much stopped expanding transit 20 years ago. Time to catch up.
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

If this happens....and if they start charging full amount as they do on cars therefore maybe $20 bucks a day for a full day 8 hrs. I believe there would be a great amount of these bikes listed on Craigslist asap.

I for one can't afford to pay an extra $400 a month to park. Most of the bikers to the downtown core are probably in the same boat. I would be hard pressed to justify this extra expense and the alternative is having to have a bike sitting at home fully insured 5 days a week and 3-4 months in the garage under a tarp. How do I justify insurance on it?

I get most of my riding pleasure riding into work. I know many hate the downtown traffic and don't find any pleasure in riding in during rush hour, but I enjoy it more than the alternative- TTC.

So if commuting on the bike is not viable anymore than many will either sell their bikes or just have sitting at home. Now selling these bikes will have an adverse effect on the whole economy as well. Dealers will suffer as well as other vendors that cater to the motorcycle community. I don't think all the downtown bikers will hop into the cage and drive in, I won't cause the extra cost, (car guzzles more than a bike plus oil changes and maintenance on car is more and will be more often than if you drive into downtown).

So many will just take the TTC which will help the city. Rather than making it more attractive and going green Ford Nation is doing well with their agenda of less-green and pro car. The cagers will definitely be more happier if this goes through, more parking spots and less bikes whizzing around them.
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