Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

[TekNinja81]

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Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

They'll probably slap some stupid annual $100 "City Vehicle/Parking Tax" on motorcycles now, or something similar...

 

[LannyNguyen]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

And how can we pay for parking on the bikes....

I don't park my bike on the sidewalks. It's those damn Vespas.

 

[chiller]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I wrote this the other day after reading this thread:


Hi Councillor Wong Tam,

My friends just apprised me of this item on the Agenda today:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2011.MM14.19

I see this as a gigantic headache for all motorcycle and scooter riders. In the past, I have had my paid ticket stolen off my motorcycle and replaced by a violation ticket from the city. This is because there is no secure way to attach the ticket on a motorcycle or scooter without the possibility of theft. This translates into a waste of my time and the city employee's time in reversing the charges. I don't see how this is a benefit to anyone in the system. Please tell me how this is a benefit to me or the city ? I can see none. Will I be compensated for my time waiting in line for something that is of no fault of my own when a thief decides he wants my unsecured paid ticket ?

Thanks.



I got this response in the afternoon:

Thank you for your email on street parking for motorcycles and scooters.

I have seconded a motion with Councillor Mike Del Grande to request a staff report with respect to parking charges. This report will be presented to the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee in February, 2012.

I am advocating for the creation of dedicated motorcycle and scooter parking to ensure the availability of parking for all motorized vehicles on our city streets, as well as to help reduce the frequency of moving vehicles being driven into pedestrian zones for parking.

There will be no changes to present parking rules until any future report has been written, explored, then voted upon. My hope is that any new rules to be proposed will be inclusive, comprehensive, and account for the historic issues Toronto has faced with past by-laws.

Respectfully yours,

Kristyn Wong-Tam
Councillor, Ward 27
Toronto Centre-Rosedale

 

[Flashmonkey]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Got a response from Councillor Wong-Tam:

Dedicated motorcycle/scooter parking wouldn't be a bad way to handle this situation either....

 

[ABadjusterrider_5]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

This is the response I got:

Thank you for your email on street parking for motorcycles and scooters.

I have seconded a motion with Councillor Mike Del Grande to request a staff report with respect to parking charges. This report will be presented to the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee in February, 2012.

I am advocating for the creation of dedicated motorcycle and scooter parking to ensure the availability of parking for all motorized vehicles on our city streets, as well as to help reduce the frequency of moving vehicles being driven into pedestrian zones for parking.

There will be no changes to present parking rules until any future report has been written, explored, then voted upon. My hope is that any new rules to be proposed will be inclusive, comprehensive, and account for the historic issues Toronto has faced with past by-laws.

Respectfully yours,

Kristyn Wong-Tam
Councillor, Ward 27
Toronto Centre-Rosedale

 

[AdRath]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Dedicated motorcycle/scooter parking wouldn't be a bad way to handle this situation either....

especially because none of the cities underground lots (with most above ground lots becoming condos) don't let motorcycles park. I can live with that. of course I hope it doesn't cost the same as a car given the amount of space a bike takes up. That to me will decide if they are trying to be fair or just going for a cash grab.

My councilor hasn't responded to my email. I have talked to a couple of neighbours who have bikes and they haven't hear back either. Again this just re-affirms why I can't stand Paula Fletcher.

 

[TorontoBoy]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

It was my understanding that the exemption from parking fees for motorcycles and scooters was a recommendation from the City's Transportation department. They found that charging for motorcycle parking was costing them more in collection fees and processing lost parking vouchers than the revenue it brought in. The economic conditions for not charging motorcycles for parking remain just as valid today as it was 5 years ago: Motorcycles have no secure place to display a purchased parking voucher, vouchers are either blown off by the wind or stolen, tickets are then contested and the City loses. Creating a ticketing system specifically for motorcycles is cost prohibitive, as there are insufficient numbers of motorcycles to pay for the system.

Paul, should you reply to his last message I would also add that the solutions to the issue of lost parking vouchers would likely cost more than the revenue obtained through them, making it a pointless and counter-productive enterprise.

To have motorcyclists go to city hall with a valid receipt and therefore invalidate the parking ticket, costs the city money, more money than the revenue it generates from valid parking tickets. The cost saving measure done 5 years ago was to not charge for motorcycle parking. The city has financially benefited for 5 years because there was no money spend processing erroneous parking tickets.

There is no gravy in this issue. The City's existing policy of not charging for motorcycle parking results in the lowest cost and therefore highest revenue and optimal solution. I am confident that the Transportation department will come to the same conclusion as they did 5 years ago, and for the same reasons.

The fact that motorcycle riders enjoy a perceived benefit is immaterial. This policy was not created to benefit anyone else but City of Toronto finances.

"Do not cut off your nose to spite your face"

 

[fatpat]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Bummer.

I wonder if most councillors conjure up images of straight-piped cruisers when they think of motorcyclists.

 

[RockerGuy]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

All this talk about going green and they spit in our faces if we ride a scooter to save on gas

 

[champers]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Update - This arrived this afternoon in my email:

Good afternoon Paul,

Councillor Mihevc will vote to keep the free motorcycle parking in place. He agrees with your position on this.

Regards,

Beth Gosnell
Special Assistant to Councillor Joe Mihevc
Ward 21, St. Paul's West

 

[K13GT]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

This is the response I got:
I am advocating for the creation of dedicated motorcycle and scooter parking to ensure the availability of parking for all motorized vehicles on our city streets, as well as to help reduce the frequency of moving vehicles being driven into pedestrian zones for parking.
Kristyn Wong-Tam
Councillor, Ward 27
Toronto Centre-Rosedale

Her explanation makes no sense, and off topic (does not directly address why motorcycles/ scooters should pay for on-street parking now, when compliance is difficult and enforcement is problematic):

1. Is she proposing that motorcycles and scooters only park in dedicated parking spaces?? They're going to implement that throughout the City, as is available in San Francisco for example?

2. If she doesn't like motorcycles or scooters parking on sidewalks? Then just enforce (or amend) existing Bylaws to prohibit the practice.

Kristyn Wong-Tam should visit London or Paris: motorcycles and scooters have safely parked on sidewalks (due to congestion) for years.

 

[GreyGhost]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I just checked, he did vote no. Good to see that a councillor followed through.

Update - This arrived this afternoon in my email:

Good afternoon Paul,

Councillor Mihevc will vote to keep the free motorcycle parking in place. He agrees with your position on this.

Regards,

Beth Gosnell
Special Assistant to Councillor Joe Mihevc
Ward 21, St. Paul's West

 

[awyala]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I got the same response from Wong and she is copy and paste idiot. If parking is currently free, this issue of vespas on the curbs has nothing to do with availability! There is sufficient availability as it is on public streets. Scooter culture simply feels that they are in some European hipster grey area where they can park on the side walks like in France or Italy. It has nothing to do with availability. Is she seriously proposing taking away car parking spaces and dedicating whole swathes of parking spots exclussively to bikes? She doesn't come across as pro bikes at all. To top it off, we already have laws in place to deal with motorized vehicles on pedestrian walk ways. It is not our fault the traffic wardens give them a pass as they are baffled by hipster or Ebike culture.

Wong is confusing issues and at 27 I highly doubt she is qualified for this position. She comes off as an inexperienced keener.

 

[ZX600]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I got the same response from Wong and she is copy and paste idiot. If parking is currently free, this issue of vespas on the curbs has nothing to do with availability! There is sufficient availability as it is on public streets. Scooter culture simply feels that they are in some European hipster grey area where they can park on the side walks like in France or Italy. It has nothing to do with availability. Is she seriously proposing taking away car parking spaces and dedicating whole swathes of parking spots exclussively to bikes? She doesn't come across as pro bikes at all. To top it off, we already have laws in place to deal with motorized vehicles on pedestrian walk ways. It is not our fault the traffic wardens give them a pass as they are baffled by hipster or Ebike culture.

Wong is confusing issues and at 27 I highly doubt she is qualified for this position. She comes off as an inexperienced keener.

She has given the same canned response to 3 people now on this thread, I would suggest writing back and asking for a more detail explnation on what does taken free parking away will help with the issue of bikes parking on side walks, challenge and mention that she has given you a drafted standard response and you require a detailed response addressing your concerns, I would also say that writing to her is a waste of time, write your own councilor.

 

[unfinite]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

She has given the same canned response to 3 people now on this thread, I would suggest writing back and asking for a more detail explnation on what does taken free parking away will help with the issue of bikes parking on side walks, challenge and mention that she has given you a drafted standard response and you require a detailed response addressing your concerns, I would also say that writing to her is a waste of time, write your own councilor.

I sent her an email.

Councillor Wong-Tam,

I have read your canned response regarding MM14.19 - Fees for Motorcycle Parking. In particular, you said:

"I am advocating for the creation of dedicated motorcycle and scooter parking to ensure the availability of parking for all motorized vehicles on our city streets..."

So you are under the belief that this will somehow free up parking for other vehicles? What do you think will happen when motorcycle riders decide to take their cars to work downtown instead of their bikes? Where will all these people park their cars? You should be thankful for motorcyclists; by taking their motorcycles downtown instead of cars, they free up countless parking spaces for other vehicles to use. If motorcycles start being charged for full spaces, when in fact they only use 1/5th of one, you'll stop seeing those nice tightly packed rows. People will take up the whole space you're making them pay for.

"...as well as to help reduce the frequency of moving vehicles being driven into pedestrian zones for parking."

I'm not sure how you can believe that parking fees will keep people from parking on sidewalks. If anything, parking fees will only increase the number of motorcycles illegally parked. After all, parking a motorcycle on the sidewalk is already illegal, which you don't seem to realize. If free motorcycle parking is taken away, you will see more people parking on sidewalks, because even with free parking available to them, a few people still do it. What incentive will there be to keep them from parking on the sidewalk under your proposal?

Looking forward to your reply,

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Got a response from Councillor Wong-Tam:

Rubber stamp email. I got exactly the same from her, word for word. She's the councillor, who oversees the area in which I work.

"Right now, I'm devoting a great deal of time and study to that problem. And I intend to issue a position paper on that. A position that is at once simple, yet complex, flexible, and above all else, fair to every American." - Les Nessman

 

[awyala]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

My response to Wong (I'm ******).

Kristyn Wong-Tam,

How does your rational have anything to do with charges? Creating "dedicated motorcycle and scooter parking to ensure the availability of parking for all motorized vehicles on our city streets, as well as to help reduce the frequency of moving vehicles being driven into pedestrian zones for parking" as you put it, has nothing to do with a change in motorcycle parking charges. It has nothing to do with the proposed rational of your colleague who proposed the motion that bikes use as much gas as cars (which is categorically false!), or that we occupy the same space when parking or driving (which is again woefully incorrect!). If indeed you wish to create dedicated bike parking, as London UK has, you must consider their dedicated motorcycle parking is free! One notoriously aggressive stealth tax borough (Westminster), highly controversially, and after many many years of having free motorcycle parking zones, and after a much denser and larger population than Toronto's, and after a far larger all year round motorcycle community, decided to charge a flat one pound fifty for unlimited motorcycle parking. This could only be enforced by the recent implementation and installation of a new parking meter system installed city wide primarily for cars. It was a text / sms based pay parking system. Mind you this one borough was also the wealthiest and most prestigious, and most congested borough in the core. Several other boroughs did not enact the same minor charge to motorcycles. Westminster borough is notorious for having the shortest grace periods after a ticket has run out of time (only 2 minutes, as opposed to 5 minutes city wide), and having an enormous battery of poorly paid, highly motivated (based on quota), largely newly immigrated warden enforcers. London is a city with a large number of immigrants in a state of flux, transit or in a far more desperate state to become residents than Toronto, more akin to California. Immigrants are not of the same opinion to flood into low paid, high stress traffic warden positions, commiserate on quotas in Toronto as they are in a city such as London. Westminster also being the borough which is home to London's Westend, Buckingham Palace, areas such as Mayfair, Soho, Nottinghill, Parliament, Hyde Park, Regent's Park and so on. Despite the internationally renowned clout and status of the Duke of Westminster, the borough is looked upon as being an aggressive and unjustified stealth taxer. Just to give you an idea of the type of political power in that borough: Gerald Grosvenor, the sixth Duke of Westminster and the current head of the Grosvenor family, is the richest man in Britain, according to Forbes Global magazine's list of the world's billionaires. This man alone owns 10 billion pounds worth of land in the borough. Do you really feel Toronto has that sort of political clout to justify such an aggressive parking policy? Do you think Toronto even compares to Manhattan's stacked car parking measures? That's laughable to think Toronto needs to enact such Draconian and elaborate measures to squeeze a buck out of those very environmentally conscious citizens who have reduced their carbon footprint, braved the elements just to be met with a poorly conceived stealth tax. What a kick in the teeth and a drastically poor way to put forward your idealistic view of environmental and heritage protection. I am personally stunned at the lack of fore sight on your part, especially when you try to put forward an image of environmental champion.

Have you even seriously thought this through? You are willing to revamp the entire pay parking system, dedicate large sections of motorcycle only parking bays that cars cannot share with us, in order to charge us on a sms based system $1.50 per day? That's absolutely absurd, especially when you are nowhere near experiencing the same conditions of a international bustling hub as London. The law already explicitly states no motorized vehicles can be parked or driven on pedestrian pathways, with the exception of E-bikes. It has nothing to do with the motorcycle community that the city's wardens are so poorly trained and informed they perpetuate the offences by not acting upon them. No less than 4 times, and the ONLY 4 times I enquired with traffic wardens about why scooters seem to be allowed to park on the sidewalks, I have been told simply that they can and that motorcycles cannot, and offered no basis for the distinction, be it engine size, configuration, model of bike / scooter.

There is plenty of on street parking for motorcycles, PLENTY! The problem lies more with private parking lots (underground in the Toronto core) who make no distinction between motorcycle and car. I work in a provincial government building and the underground parking charges an exorbitant rate, while I also have no problem ever finding parking on the street.

Furthermore, this city's ridiculous system of appealing incorrectly issued parking tickets, requiring personal representation to copy the information on the ticket onto another form and submit it through a window after taking a number....THAT NEEDS REFORMATION!!! I urge you to do some research on that matter, and to start you off, take look again at London; they allow email appeals! Wow in this day and age, who would have thought it possible! Save everyone some time and money and decongest the bureaucracy in the system before you attempt to sneak in a stealth tax. That sad part here is that you not only do not propose bold new leadership, you are late in even poorly copying the initiatives of other greater cities. I also do not appreciate your copy and paste response, whereby you avoided specific points I raised.

You seem to have radically confused the matter and thrown your lot in with a councilor who is proposing issues dissimilar to your own and based on incorrect information.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Dedicated motorcycle/scooter parking wouldn't be a bad way to handle this situation either....

Given that parking in the downtown core is a finite resource, and motorcycles are a seasonal mode of transport, this would be a TERRIBLE idea. It would actually hurt car drivers. It could also potentially hurt motorcyclists, if the city under estimates the amount of dedicated space needed. The previous solution is the best of both worlds, for all involved.

 

[RetroGrouch]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

They'll probably slap some stupid annual $100 "City Vehicle/Parking Tax" on motorcycles now, or something similar...

Unlimited downtown parking for $100/yr is unreasonable? I'd pay that no problem. I would save that much within 2 weeks.

 

[Flashmonkey]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Given that parking in the downtown core is a finite resource, and motorcycles are a seasonal mode of transport, this would be a TERRIBLE idea. It would actually hurt car drivers. It could also potentially hurt motorcyclists, if the city under estimates the amount of dedicated space needed. The previous solution is the best of both worlds, for all involved.

Free parking? I agree. But if they're hell bent on making us pay, they'd better find a way to make this work properly. Im hoping that when they look into this more (if they do) then they'll realize how big of a cluster**** it could turn into.

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